Deprogramming the Good Girl with Michelle Minnikin

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Most of us were taught from a very young age

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to be good girls. Be nice, be helpful, don't

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make anyone uncomfortable, and definitely don't

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let anyone think that you're too much. Those

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qualities may earn us praise early in our careers,

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but eventually, being the agreeable person who

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always says yes can leave us overworked, undervalued,

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and quietly resentful. Today, I'm talking with

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Michelle Minikin, psychologist, coach, and author

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of Good Girl Deprogramming. We get into how this

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conditioning follows us into the workplace, why

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resentment may be the clearest sign that one

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of your boundaries is being crossed, and what

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it actually means to enter your villain era.

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And no, it doesn't mean becoming an asshole.

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It means becoming a little bit more comfortable

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with disappointing people and a lot more comfortable

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being yourself. Michelle, welcome to Loud and

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Lifted. Thank you so much for being here. Thank

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you so much for having me. I'm so excited about

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this conversation. I am so excited about this

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conversation too because sometimes you just see

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somebody or you read something that people write

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and you're like, oh, I love this person. I am

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totally aligned with what they're saying and

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how they're saying it. And you were one of those

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people. I saw some writings that you did on LinkedIn

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and, you know, you start off with that you're

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no fluff, right? Let you cut to how it really

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is. And my other favorite thing that you say

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is that you're burning the rule book and you're

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writing something better, which I can totally

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agree with. So I'm so excited for this conversation

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and to get into some of those thoughts that you

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have around that and some of the research you've

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done. So let's start with what I think is probably

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your core of what you talk about. And that is

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part of the challenges that we have as women

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is that we don't need fixed, but we need to remember

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who we are. And part of that is because we have

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been programmed to be good girls. So let's start

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with good girls. Tell us what that means and

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why did this happen to us? I'm gonna start, I'm

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gonna start saying something really controversial.

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So if the patriarchy was our natural way of living,

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we wouldn't have to do all of this conditioning

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people into being good girls. We would just allow

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people to be themselves. Anyway, so yeah, good

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girl conditioning, all the ways we're trained

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from birth, from that gender reveal, oh, it's

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gonna be a girl. to be nice, to be kind, to care,

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to share, to put everybody on the planet ahead

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of yourself and do not age. Aging is like cardinal

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sin. It's like you're not none of that, no thank

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you. And I was asked, how are we trained to be

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good girls? Interestingly enough, conditioning

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is pretty much the first thing I learned about

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when I was studying psychology at university.

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And I was like, I don't know. How has this happened?

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Anyway, this led to this whole big, huge quest

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to figure that out and effectively coercive control.

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They use various tactics. They, society, use

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very insidious, actually, tactics of coercion

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to get us to doubt ourselves and get us to behave

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in all of the ways. And you're right, it starts

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at such a young age and probably as parents,

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we've all been guilty of doing it and not even

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realizing it because that's the way we were raised.

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And it just becomes this generational challenge

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of, well, that's just the way we are and this

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is the way we operate. So, when we're getting

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this programming, right, through Good Girls,

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and again, I think back to like the younger days

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of having when my girls were young and being

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very aware of what was acceptable for boys and

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girls when they were like, let's say five, right?

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And the behavior, oh, he's just a boy. Oh, it's

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okay. He's hitting another kid or not listening.

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And meanwhile, the girls, of course, that behavior

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wasn't even acceptable when they were young.

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No. No, we treat we train our girls to be good

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and kind and polite and all of those things.

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And I'm not saying all of this is bad, by the

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way, because it's like, well, why wouldn't we

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want to be polite? Well, obviously, we have to

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live in community with each other and, you know,

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not be dicks. But boys are trained to be brave

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and to take risks. And they. Get away with and

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I'm guilty. I'm a I'm a boy mom, but not And

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Yeah, it's just boys would be boys boys will

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get muddy boys will you know be disruptive in

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class and we just We'll just do anything we can

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to prevent them having feelings Yeah, I totally,

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totally understand that. So let's go, let's fast

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forward through childhood, right? So now we're

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adults, we're entering the workforce. What does

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this look like if I show up to be a good girl

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professionally? Well, interestingly enough, they

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train us so well in the education system because

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what works for education, so you do your work,

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you do your study, you do your preparation, you

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make things as perfect as possible because you

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get in grades, but you also get feedback. You

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get very good feedback as well. So they train

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us so well to be good students, which is very

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intertwined with this good girl stuff. And then

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they fling us into organisations where we are

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not rewarded for planning and preparing and being

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perfect and taking our time and doing all of

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the extra stuff. We are then immediately told

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that we lack confidence, that we're not strategic

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enough, that we are not putting ourselves forward.

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We are either not confident enough, not assertive

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enough or too confident slash aggressive. And

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we have to... negotiate this tightrope of credibility

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versus likeability. So if you are too likeable,

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which was literally me because I developed into

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the, probably I would have won the Olympic champion's

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people pleasing competition, likeability, I made

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it my mission to get everybody to like me. Even

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if I didn't like them, it was insane. And then

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on the other side of it is if you are not likeable

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enough, but you're too credible. you know, if

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you're like too competent and too intelligent

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and too asking questions, if that's the thing,

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then you're on this tightrope of likable, credible,

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likable, and everybody has a different like preference

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for your likability and credibility. So for some

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you are, you just, it's exhausting. It is your

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subject to other people's judgment and it's completely

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unsustainable. We should just be able to go and

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do our work. go home without all of this extra

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thinking. Oh, that's so true. And, and the likable

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part of that, I can, I mean, all those things

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that you said have been said to me throughout

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my career, right? Like on both ends of the spectrum,

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you try to try to like compensate and become

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a little bit more of a badass or a little bit

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more of not so kind and that that backfire. So

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it's finding that balance. But it's funny. Part

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of the reason why your content really has stood

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out to me is because when I was probably 22,

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23, I was super like beginning of my career.

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And my manager at the time was definitely good

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girl, right? Like she everybody loved her. She

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was so sweet, super smart, but like just became

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the person that everybody dumped all their work

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on all the time. And she just, you know, was

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working herself into the ground, essentially.

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And she gave me a book, which I think was for

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her. She read it too, but you know, she's like,

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I just wish somebody would have told me this

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early in my career. And it was something like

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why good girls don't get ahead, but gutsy girls

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do. And we're talking like early nineties, this

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book was written, right? Like it didn't even

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have about like social media and all those things,

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but this was, this is my age, early nineties.

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But I remember 25 years later, that book and

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some of the pieces of that, how like, yeah, you're

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not gonna be rewarded for. I'm just always getting

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your job done. You'll get the pat on the back,

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right? You're going to get the good job. Thank

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you for, you know, your participation, but you're

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not going to excel in your career. But you have

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to have that balance of, you know, taking risks,

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being ambitious, being a little gutsy, essentially.

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So it's so funny to me that that was a concept

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that someone told me about so early in my career

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that if she did it and I would have just followed

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her lead of, you know, because I do genuinely

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want people to like me too. I've learned to be

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better about that as I've grown in the leadership

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perspective. But you do, you have that like I

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just I tend to get along with people. I tend

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to like people. I tend to be able to build relationships.

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So as I was growing in my career, and of course,

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everyone's not gonna like you, that's just not

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even possible. Like it was this sort of culture

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shock of like, oh, wait, okay, so everyone's

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not gonna think I'm sunshine and roses and gray,

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even if I am being like so nice, because whether

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they're jealous or whatever it is. So when we're

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in that situation, like, what do we what do we

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do as women, right? Like, how do we balance all

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those things that you just said, because it's

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it's you can't please everybody. And at some

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point, you just got to go back and be true to

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who you are. So how do we do that? Because it's

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like, holy shit, that sounds so overwhelming.

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And people pick my book up and I'm like, oh,

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that's a lot. And then they put it down and then

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they don't ever come back to it sometimes. It's

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like, just keep going. It's baby steps. And it's

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baby steps because I had so many people saying

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to me, you just need better boundaries. I'm like,

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where do you get boundaries? Can you get them

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in Walmart? I don't know. I say Tesco's to when

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I talk to people in the UK, but Walmart. It's

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like, it's tiny things. It's noticing. So one

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of the interesting things is We are trained to

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completely disregard our bodies. We don't listen

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to them. We don't listen to our very intelligent,

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you know, millions of years of evolution and

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intelligence that we keep in every part of our

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body. We just, you know, our bodies are tired,

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but we keep going. You know, we need something

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to eat, but we keep going. We think, oh, this

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is a bit of a dodgy one, but we ignore that because

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we don't want to be biased. And it's like it's

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literally we just spend our entire lives ignoring

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our body, our feelings, our emotions, all of

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our stuff. So I think the first thing you do

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is start noticing. But dispassionately, because.

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we are very good at like oh my goodness I am

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rubbish because I just people pleased or I said

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yes when I meant no and like don't go to war

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with those inner critic voices they are literally

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there they have been designed for those who have

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I was amazed when I found out people don't have

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loads of different voices in their heads like

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anyway that is an aside but it's just it's it's

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Those voices are there to protect you. Right

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or wrongly. Right. And it's all about integration.

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It's all about noticing, noticing how you are

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feeling. Notice instead of like all of this numbing

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that we do. It's like, oh, I feel sad. I'm going

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to eat some crisps, chips. Well, and part of

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it too is that we're rewarded for that, right?

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Like when you are busting your ass and you're

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working overtime hours and you're, you know,

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you're balancing, not even balancing, juggling,

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you know, work life home, all those things, like

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we're rewarded for that behavior. And then it's

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like that just, well, that's what I should do.

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And that kind of fuels you to keep going and

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keep doing that. I know. And then... we wonder

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why we are burning out at ridiculous rates. We

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wonder why when we hit menopause women are leaving

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or getting pushed out of organisations because

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we literally cannot cope with all of the other

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things as well as our body and brains doing all

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sorts of weird and wonderful things. It is unsustainable

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and we are burning people out. We are not living.

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We are barely surviving as a population. Do you

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see this more in high achieving women? Yeah.

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Yes. And also neurodivergent women. It's well

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different. Yeah, I think they're my two main

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groups. Okay, that makes sense. Some people are

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happy just to plod and say no to people. Some

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people don't have this good girl conditioning

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as well. Some people just totally skip the memos

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and I really admire those people. Right. Good

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for them. We are jealous of you. I know. It's

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like not jealous. So if someone's listening to

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this and they're thinking, am I a good girl?

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What would be, especially professionally, what

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are those signs that if you're a good girl, if

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you're doing or seeing this, what would be some

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of those signs for someone if they're listening

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to this and they're probably such a good girl

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that they're not even sure if they are because

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they don't see that? Your number one emotion

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feeling to notice is resentment. when you're

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starting to feel resentment and bitterness because

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you've said yes when you meant no, you've taken

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on more work when you don't have the capacity

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and when somebody says they're going to do something

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and then they don't and then you have then you're

00:13:12.889 --> 00:13:14.490
the asshole because you have to chase them for

00:13:14.490 --> 00:13:17.590
it. It's that it's the noticing the resentment

00:13:17.590 --> 00:13:21.730
because when you notice the resentment is a sign

00:13:21.730 --> 00:13:26.019
your body's intelligent sign that you are having

00:13:26.019 --> 00:13:28.840
one of your boundaries squished that's the first

00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:30.480
that's the first thing to do it's like figure

00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:34.120
out just notice notice when you're feeling resentment

00:13:34.120 --> 00:13:36.820
make a note of that make a note of who it was

00:13:36.820 --> 00:13:40.200
what it was and then you can sort of excavate

00:13:40.200 --> 00:13:44.480
what your boundaries are because it's like it

00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:48.779
all starts it all starts with that so yeah if

00:13:48.779 --> 00:13:53.179
you're if you're a walking ball of rage maybe

00:13:54.830 --> 00:13:57.690
Maybe not my bit. Well, you've watched the news

00:13:57.690 --> 00:14:02.159
channel, but you know. So. That no, that's that's

00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:04.179
totally fair. That makes sense. And so if if

00:14:04.179 --> 00:14:06.480
if someone sees that, right, and they feel that,

00:14:06.659 --> 00:14:08.799
yes, I feel like I have this rage, I definitely

00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:11.620
like I'm told I'm easy to work with, or I'm super,

00:14:11.620 --> 00:14:13.139
you know, collaborative, and all those things.

00:14:13.220 --> 00:14:15.419
I always feel like those are like warning signs,

00:14:15.559 --> 00:14:17.100
right? When people are talking about how easy

00:14:17.100 --> 00:14:19.220
you are to work with. And of course, you said

00:14:19.220 --> 00:14:20.879
like the boundaries piece, but we can't go buy

00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:22.919
those at Walmart. And it's funny, we talk about

00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:25.580
boundaries a lot on this podcast, because it's

00:14:25.580 --> 00:14:27.960
something that we struggle with. And it's not

00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:31.179
going to be flipping the switch tomorrow, right?

00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:33.759
And suddenly like putting up these walls and

00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:35.480
barriers all around you. I mean, that would be

00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.440
amazing, but people think you've lost your damn

00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:40.580
mind. So it's the baby steps, but what do we

00:14:40.580 --> 00:14:43.620
do? Do we have conversations with people? Like,

00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:45.860
do we just slowly start having little wins? Like,

00:14:45.860 --> 00:14:50.440
how do we start to move forward? So kind of the

00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:53.179
driving force behind boundaries is this notion

00:14:53.179 --> 00:14:59.210
of self -love. as much love into yourself as

00:14:59.210 --> 00:15:04.090
you possibly can. So, my favourite boundary story

00:15:04.090 --> 00:15:08.450
is with my, it's experiments. So some people

00:15:08.450 --> 00:15:10.389
need a conversation, some people you just need

00:15:10.389 --> 00:15:13.009
to stop doing it. Some people you just need to

00:15:13.009 --> 00:15:15.470
start saying no to. But my favourite thing is

00:15:15.470 --> 00:15:17.490
just perform a little experiment, see what would

00:15:17.490 --> 00:15:20.509
happen if. And again, just passionately, just.

00:15:21.439 --> 00:15:23.799
Channel your inner scientist with a white coat

00:15:23.799 --> 00:15:26.259
and a clipboard maybe some like safety goggles

00:15:26.259 --> 00:15:29.299
because you know my favorite story is when I

00:15:29.299 --> 00:15:32.039
was writing the book so I was living with my

00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:36.039
partner and When we first started dating he was

00:15:36.039 --> 00:15:38.080
he came to my house. It was my house He came

00:15:38.080 --> 00:15:40.240
day he came to my house and we started working

00:15:40.240 --> 00:15:42.279
together at all because we like things to be

00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:46.759
really complicated here and So when he he was

00:15:46.759 --> 00:15:50.559
always the one coming into my space and I was

00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:53.659
taught that if you're the hostess that you do

00:15:53.659 --> 00:15:56.559
make the drinks so making teas and coffees and

00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:00.879
we were living together this was like pandemic

00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:04.120
time so you know he made the decision to move

00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:07.740
in or he was never going to see me and i was

00:16:07.740 --> 00:16:09.879
writing the book and i realized that he had never

00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:14.000
made me one cup of tea or coffee in our entire

00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:18.559
relationship and i was like what and i was like

00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:23.840
okay This is interesting information. So I performed

00:16:23.840 --> 00:16:26.659
and my hypothesis was James was completely able

00:16:26.659 --> 00:16:29.000
to make me a cup of tea. I just wasn't letting

00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:33.059
him or asking. So I was like, OK, I'm going to

00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:34.639
perform experiments and for the next seven days

00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:36.659
I'm going to ask him for a cup of tea every day.

00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:40.019
And he did. And there was no fight. There was

00:16:40.019 --> 00:16:44.080
no argument. He just got a cup of tea and gave

00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:48.169
me it. And I was like, wow. Imagine if we could

00:16:48.169 --> 00:16:52.850
ask for more things. How was his response the

00:16:52.850 --> 00:16:55.009
first time? So I didn't tell him till probably

00:16:55.009 --> 00:16:57.330
about five days in and I like burst out laughing

00:16:57.330 --> 00:17:00.370
and he was like, you're being weirder than normal.

00:17:00.389 --> 00:17:02.470
What is going on? And I said, well, I'm just

00:17:02.470 --> 00:17:04.609
performing this little experiment. Just, and

00:17:04.609 --> 00:17:06.670
this is what happened and it wasn't your fault.

00:17:07.109 --> 00:17:10.710
So this is, I was not blaming him because this

00:17:10.710 --> 00:17:15.799
was me. I created this monster. was a tiny monster,

00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:17.599
but it's just little things. So he thought it

00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:19.259
was funny as well, because it's like, oh, that's

00:17:19.259 --> 00:17:22.180
really funny, because. Well, and it's that expectation,

00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:24.579
right? Like you just became, it became a habit.

00:17:24.660 --> 00:17:27.160
He wasn't being malicious or trying to be lazy

00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:29.259
or anything. It just became your routine and

00:17:29.259 --> 00:17:32.240
the habit. And no one was really thinking about

00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:34.460
it. Like, and then he took a step back and you're

00:17:34.460 --> 00:17:38.660
like, I want my coffee. Yeah, it's insane. And

00:17:38.660 --> 00:17:40.660
as I was saying, when we first came on, my partner's

00:17:41.180 --> 00:17:43.759
three months ago ruptured his Achilles so he's

00:17:43.759 --> 00:17:47.380
not been able to drive or do shopping or cook

00:17:47.380 --> 00:17:51.019
or all of these things and I have really realised

00:17:51.019 --> 00:17:53.599
how much he does for me so I feel like a lot

00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:56.759
more grateful for him because I'm having to do

00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:58.420
all of the things and I'm very much looking forward

00:17:58.420 --> 00:18:01.500
to him being able to do all of the things because

00:18:01.500 --> 00:18:03.779
I really like him doing all the things and I

00:18:03.779 --> 00:18:07.450
think that's nice. I think that's nice too. But

00:18:07.450 --> 00:18:10.630
you're right. We do that at home and we do that

00:18:10.630 --> 00:18:12.930
at work. Like I am guilty on both fronts. Probably

00:18:12.930 --> 00:18:14.849
more at home I have been guilty through the years

00:18:14.849 --> 00:18:17.089
versus work where you just become in these habits

00:18:17.089 --> 00:18:19.269
and you just don't want to, for whatever reason,

00:18:19.410 --> 00:18:21.470
it's control. You don't want to deal with it.

00:18:21.630 --> 00:18:22.930
Or like now with my kids, like I know they're

00:18:22.930 --> 00:18:24.710
going to do it half ass. So I don't want to have

00:18:24.710 --> 00:18:26.509
to go through the fight. So I just do things.

00:18:26.529 --> 00:18:29.549
So I don't delegate. that behavior is one thing

00:18:29.549 --> 00:18:31.410
at work or at home. But when we do it at work,

00:18:31.470 --> 00:18:34.589
it's a whole other level of then you become the

00:18:34.589 --> 00:18:36.430
worker bee. People just keep dumping work on

00:18:36.430 --> 00:18:38.309
you because they know you're going to do it.

00:18:38.849 --> 00:18:42.150
So that's being an executor and a coordinator

00:18:42.150 --> 00:18:44.109
is great. And there's a time for that. But if

00:18:44.109 --> 00:18:46.950
your goal is to be in leadership and to be, you

00:18:46.950 --> 00:18:49.049
know, a higher level position, that's not what

00:18:49.049 --> 00:18:52.769
a higher level position is known for. So it's

00:18:52.769 --> 00:18:55.390
like that the good girl mentality will get you.

00:18:55.500 --> 00:18:57.880
to a certain spot, right? But then you're not

00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:00.940
going to be a high level director, a VP. You're

00:19:00.940 --> 00:19:03.180
not going to run the company being a good girl.

00:19:03.380 --> 00:19:05.859
There's limits. Because people don't notice you

00:19:05.859 --> 00:19:10.819
because you are such a safe pair of hands. And

00:19:10.819 --> 00:19:13.099
yeah, we just sit around waiting for somebody

00:19:13.099 --> 00:19:14.859
to put the crown on our heads rather than actually

00:19:14.859 --> 00:19:18.680
going for it. So I read a book years ago, Meredith

00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.069
Feynman Bragg Better, and in that book I learnt

00:19:22.069 --> 00:19:24.430
that we are supposed to have career conversations

00:19:24.430 --> 00:19:26.410
and we are supposed to talk about the work that

00:19:26.410 --> 00:19:28.789
we've done and we're supposed to do a little

00:19:28.789 --> 00:19:33.730
bit of bragging and good girls don't brag. Ah

00:19:33.730 --> 00:19:38.130
true. So that has been really interesting for

00:19:38.130 --> 00:19:40.950
me working for myself it's like oh I wrote for

00:19:40.950 --> 00:19:42.869
myself I don't want to tell people about my achievements

00:19:42.869 --> 00:19:45.349
because other people think I'm some sort of braggie

00:19:45.349 --> 00:19:48.750
weirdo on the internet and it's like the reframe

00:19:48.750 --> 00:19:52.660
for that for me was There's some women that are

00:19:52.660 --> 00:19:55.759
really struggling with this good girl stuff and

00:19:55.759 --> 00:19:59.119
because they don't know you exist, you are being

00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:02.880
a selfish bitch. I've said that word for ages.

00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:08.440
So that reframe is like, I have a duty to tell

00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:10.839
people about all of the good work that I do because

00:20:10.839 --> 00:20:14.700
I can actually help people and because I'm a

00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:17.460
psychologist, I measure how much I help them.

00:20:20.670 --> 00:20:23.549
It's not about being more confident, it's about

00:20:23.549 --> 00:20:26.710
being more safe in your own body and that you

00:20:26.710 --> 00:20:30.190
can perform confidence because if you feel safe

00:20:30.190 --> 00:20:34.289
you are confident. Oh, that's so true. And, you

00:20:34.289 --> 00:20:35.950
know, you brought up a really good point. I had

00:20:35.950 --> 00:20:38.369
a coaching session with a young woman yesterday

00:20:38.369 --> 00:20:40.069
who's very early in her career. And, you know,

00:20:40.069 --> 00:20:41.410
I don't want to say she needs to prove herself,

00:20:41.410 --> 00:20:43.529
but she needs to get the exposure or the visibility.

00:20:44.269 --> 00:20:46.829
And she's very confident. She's confident, but

00:20:46.829 --> 00:20:49.329
she doesn't want to promote herself. And she

00:20:49.329 --> 00:20:51.210
literally said that. She's like, oh, I just don't

00:20:51.210 --> 00:20:53.289
want to come across as being like that I'm full

00:20:53.289 --> 00:20:55.410
of myself or that I'm cocky. I said the fact

00:20:55.410 --> 00:20:58.150
that you even ask that or say that means that

00:20:58.190 --> 00:21:00.210
You're far from that. The fact that you're acknowledging

00:21:00.210 --> 00:21:01.930
that and you're concerned, like, you're not going

00:21:01.930 --> 00:21:04.069
to come across as being arrogant or that you're

00:21:04.069 --> 00:21:05.829
bragging about what you're doing because you're

00:21:05.829 --> 00:21:08.490
already aware of that. I said, but that's that

00:21:08.490 --> 00:21:10.210
whole visibility and exposure. Again, that's

00:21:10.210 --> 00:21:11.829
a theme that comes up time and time and time,

00:21:11.890 --> 00:21:14.470
time and time again on these episodes because

00:21:14.470 --> 00:21:16.430
it is. It's one of those things, biggest keys

00:21:16.430 --> 00:21:18.750
that I think women struggle with because you

00:21:18.750 --> 00:21:20.690
don't want to rock the boat or take away the

00:21:20.690 --> 00:21:22.869
spotlight from someone else and you're not. But

00:21:22.869 --> 00:21:25.269
I love that it's being selfish if you're not,

00:21:25.269 --> 00:21:27.089
you know, saying who you are and what you do.

00:21:27.529 --> 00:21:30.210
That's a very interesting concept. The other

00:21:30.210 --> 00:21:31.829
thing that you talk about that I love is being

00:21:31.829 --> 00:21:34.410
in your villain error. So tell me about what

00:21:34.410 --> 00:21:36.730
that means when you're in your villain error.

00:21:36.789 --> 00:21:39.009
Well, you have to be okay with people not liking

00:21:39.009 --> 00:21:44.690
you. So it's honestly, if 10 years ago me could

00:21:44.690 --> 00:21:49.029
see me now, somebody had a weird sales call a

00:21:49.029 --> 00:21:51.609
month or so ago and somebody basically wrote

00:21:51.609 --> 00:21:53.630
me a really, I would say passive aggressive,

00:21:53.710 --> 00:21:56.190
that's a fairly aggressive email to say that

00:21:56.190 --> 00:21:59.269
I was. I was aggressive. Like, ooh, it's all

00:21:59.269 --> 00:22:03.009
projection. Anyway, um, aggressive, sexist. I

00:22:03.009 --> 00:22:05.769
made a joke about liking bossing men around.

00:22:06.329 --> 00:22:10.049
Like, okay. Um, that apparently is sexist. And

00:22:10.049 --> 00:22:14.809
the other one was angry. It's like, lady, if

00:22:14.809 --> 00:22:20.490
you're not angry at all of the things, then I

00:22:20.490 --> 00:22:22.750
think you've got your head in the sand a little

00:22:22.750 --> 00:22:27.220
bit. And I... would have justified, I would have,

00:22:27.220 --> 00:22:29.480
you know, apologised for hurting her feelings

00:22:29.480 --> 00:22:32.000
and I was, it was a pleasant call. It was, you

00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.259
know, I came off the call, I was like, oh, that

00:22:33.259 --> 00:22:35.380
was a bit weird. There wasn't any kind of like,

00:22:35.559 --> 00:22:41.579
oh, that was awful. And I was okay with it. I

00:22:41.579 --> 00:22:44.400
was okay with her not liking me. I was okay with

00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:47.380
her then telling some people who I've known for

00:22:47.380 --> 00:22:50.059
years that I was unprofessional because I tried

00:22:50.059 --> 00:22:52.500
to sell out my programme on a call that I thought

00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:58.819
was a sales call. And that was about the level

00:22:58.819 --> 00:23:02.319
of the reaction, just a bit of a sigh. And being

00:23:02.319 --> 00:23:06.220
okay with not being liked and knowing that your

00:23:06.220 --> 00:23:15.299
people will love you because you love you. Because

00:23:15.299 --> 00:23:18.740
the worst thing at school anyone could say to

00:23:18.740 --> 00:23:21.859
about a girl is, oh my goodness, she totally

00:23:21.859 --> 00:23:26.400
loves herself. It's like... It might be an English

00:23:26.400 --> 00:23:29.980
thing. But yeah, it's like, why wouldn't we love

00:23:29.980 --> 00:23:32.099
ourselves? Society does not want women to love

00:23:32.099 --> 00:23:34.000
themselves because society wouldn't be able to

00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:36.480
extract all of the labour, the free labour, out

00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:41.180
of women if we loved ourselves. So yeah, that's

00:23:41.180 --> 00:23:44.740
kind of the thing. And so the word, I think you

00:23:44.740 --> 00:23:47.490
wanted me to say... when i was hunting around

00:23:47.490 --> 00:23:49.109
for what is the opposite of a good girl i was

00:23:49.109 --> 00:23:52.130
like oh six months of like diving into all of

00:23:52.130 --> 00:23:54.410
this stuff like what is the opposite of good

00:23:54.410 --> 00:23:58.410
girl and i came across the world the word unfuck

00:23:58.410 --> 00:24:02.069
with a bull i'm sorry yeah and then i went to

00:24:02.069 --> 00:24:04.049
the urban dictionary because it's not the actual

00:24:04.049 --> 00:24:06.150
dictionary so the urban dictionary which is a

00:24:06.150 --> 00:24:09.269
valid dictionary honestly it helps me communicate

00:24:09.269 --> 00:24:12.309
with my 16 year old boy sometimes and it says

00:24:12.309 --> 00:24:14.450
something along the lines of when you are so

00:24:15.139 --> 00:24:17.759
rooted and grounded in yourself that nothing

00:24:17.759 --> 00:24:20.019
anybody can say or do can knock you off your

00:24:20.019 --> 00:24:23.180
throne. And I was like, that is the opposite

00:24:23.180 --> 00:24:27.279
of a good girl. That is such a good definition.

00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:28.940
And I feel like we need to get that in the regular

00:24:28.940 --> 00:24:33.000
dictionary too, because that's true, right? How

00:24:33.000 --> 00:24:35.039
do we do that? There's gotta be a way to submit

00:24:35.039 --> 00:24:37.619
that. But that's what it all comes down to, right?

00:24:37.740 --> 00:24:39.779
You're going to have people who dislike you,

00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:41.400
sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for not,

00:24:41.519 --> 00:24:43.920
right? There's going to be good and bad reasons.

00:24:44.059 --> 00:24:45.900
And sometimes it's jealousy, or we can get into

00:24:45.900 --> 00:24:48.299
a whole other rabbit hole of why people might

00:24:48.299 --> 00:24:49.460
not like you. But you're just not going to be

00:24:49.460 --> 00:24:52.440
everyone's cup of tea. And I have such a hard

00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:54.180
time saying the word unfuckwithable. I think

00:24:54.180 --> 00:24:56.259
I said it right. Unfuckwithable, yay! See, I'm

00:24:56.259 --> 00:24:58.579
just going to keep saying it. It's true. And

00:24:58.579 --> 00:25:01.099
it's funny, having teen daughters, so much of

00:25:01.099 --> 00:25:02.740
this when we talk about things, I go back to

00:25:02.740 --> 00:25:05.140
my teen daughters who are 18 and 15, right? The

00:25:05.140 --> 00:25:07.420
18 year old's going to college this week. And

00:25:07.420 --> 00:25:10.000
when I think about those things that I want to

00:25:10.000 --> 00:25:12.000
instill that I hope that, you know, she's going

00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:13.359
to mess up, she's going to make bad choices,

00:25:13.539 --> 00:25:15.839
all those things. But I do, I want them to be

00:25:15.839 --> 00:25:18.900
unfuckable because there's going to be people

00:25:18.900 --> 00:25:21.660
in situations and just shit that comes their

00:25:21.660 --> 00:25:24.900
way. And it's just, it's just dealing with it.

00:25:24.900 --> 00:25:29.230
Yeah. Absolutely. This is a much better word

00:25:29.230 --> 00:25:32.650
than one of the biggest things that I think we

00:25:32.650 --> 00:25:34.250
have heard here, especially in the States over

00:25:34.250 --> 00:25:36.710
the last couple of years, is the whole let them,

00:25:37.329 --> 00:25:40.009
right? But the Mel Robbins, and to me, that's

00:25:40.009 --> 00:25:42.910
almost passive. I think there's situations and

00:25:42.910 --> 00:25:45.670
times when you should let them and let it go

00:25:45.670 --> 00:25:47.910
is another one that I think has resonated with

00:25:47.910 --> 00:25:51.539
me thanks to Frozen, how many years ago. But

00:25:51.539 --> 00:25:55.079
I feel like with your word, it's more grounded

00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:57.180
and it's more like, I'm not gonna let people

00:25:57.180 --> 00:25:59.980
walk over, walk all over me either. Like I'm

00:25:59.980 --> 00:26:02.160
gonna stand my ground and I'm just gonna be okay

00:26:02.160 --> 00:26:06.160
with who I am. I think, let it go, I sing that

00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:11.000
a lot, mostly at myself. Somebody didn't indicate,

00:26:11.740 --> 00:26:17.920
yes. But yeah, I think they do have, sometimes.

00:26:18.710 --> 00:26:21.230
you can't control the situation. So I spent the

00:26:21.230 --> 00:26:23.910
entire pandemic drawing those three concentric

00:26:23.910 --> 00:26:26.250
circles at the middle of stuff I can control,

00:26:26.630 --> 00:26:28.329
stuff that I can influence and stuff that I can't

00:26:28.329 --> 00:26:30.490
control. I spent the whole like, all of my clients

00:26:30.490 --> 00:26:32.289
were like, right, we need to do the three circles.

00:26:32.490 --> 00:26:35.190
It's almost like the three seashells from that

00:26:35.190 --> 00:26:39.549
weird, yeah, different thing. Because it is all

00:26:39.549 --> 00:26:41.829
about control. So sometimes you just need to

00:26:41.829 --> 00:26:44.250
let them because you have no control over that.

00:26:44.650 --> 00:26:48.000
Sometimes you need to... let some stuff go because

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.640
you can't be dragging around stuff that people

00:26:50.640 --> 00:26:52.680
were mean to you like 20 years ago you just need

00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:55.339
to let that shit go really so there is there

00:26:55.339 --> 00:26:58.839
is elements but this you know i am here i am

00:26:58.839 --> 00:27:02.480
sovereign i am on my throne you can throw whatever

00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:07.160
you want at me and i i will choose how to respond

00:27:07.160 --> 00:27:11.200
rather than i will react so sometimes i will

00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:17.109
match energy Oh, that's especially on the internet

00:27:17.109 --> 00:27:20.849
become a little proper menace. Only if they deserve

00:27:20.849 --> 00:27:22.230
it. And then I play with them for a little bit

00:27:22.230 --> 00:27:24.569
and then then I delete and block them. You know

00:27:24.569 --> 00:27:27.849
what was really fascinating? I spent probably

00:27:27.849 --> 00:27:30.990
six to eight months before the book came out,

00:27:31.309 --> 00:27:34.750
preparing myself for people to hate me. Literally,

00:27:34.829 --> 00:27:36.210
I thought I was going to get kicked out of the

00:27:36.210 --> 00:27:38.809
British Psychological Society because I put swear

00:27:38.809 --> 00:27:41.529
words in a book. I was like, I was like being

00:27:41.529 --> 00:27:44.950
like super dramatic about the whole thing. I've

00:27:44.950 --> 00:27:48.769
had one bad review on Amazon. And, you know,

00:27:49.049 --> 00:27:51.130
you can read the first 20 pages of the book.

00:27:51.150 --> 00:27:54.930
So it's like, you're the idiot. If you think

00:27:54.930 --> 00:27:58.289
my writing's horrendous, it's entirely your fault

00:27:58.289 --> 00:28:03.220
for buying it. And then Well, actually, the occasional

00:28:03.220 --> 00:28:04.880
woman comes along to tell me to stop swearing

00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:07.619
on the internet. And I was just like, dude, this

00:28:07.619 --> 00:28:10.240
is my space. This is my internet. This is my

00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:11.859
version of the internet. I didn't, you know,

00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:14.940
if you choose to come into my environment. Who

00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:19.039
comes at you more, men or women online? Interesting.

00:28:20.619 --> 00:28:22.420
Yeah. Oh, absolutely. A thousand percent men

00:28:22.420 --> 00:28:24.359
come to tell me that I'm wrong all the time,

00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:26.789
which is fine. It's like, oh, let's... Yeah,

00:28:26.789 --> 00:28:29.549
my facts and research and evidence base is like

00:28:29.549 --> 00:28:31.390
totally in the way some men's feelings. So it's

00:28:31.390 --> 00:28:34.210
like, that's super interesting. But if you're

00:28:34.210 --> 00:28:36.450
trying to deprogram the good girls, that impacts

00:28:36.450 --> 00:28:40.309
men. Oh, yes. And men are conditioned too, in

00:28:40.309 --> 00:28:43.430
like, in terrible ways also. And everyone's like,

00:28:43.490 --> 00:28:44.690
when are you going to write the book for men?

00:28:44.930 --> 00:28:47.130
And I used to say, oh, yes, it's coming. I'm

00:28:47.130 --> 00:28:48.549
like, absolutely. I'm not writing the book for

00:28:48.549 --> 00:28:52.089
men. I can't. How can you write the book for

00:28:52.089 --> 00:28:54.170
men? I'm not a man. I haven't lived, I haven't

00:28:54.170 --> 00:28:57.220
been conditioned. You know, so that's ridiculous.

00:28:57.400 --> 00:28:58.680
So somebody else needs to do that and it's not

00:28:58.680 --> 00:29:00.799
going to be me. Yeah. And I feel like people

00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:02.539
would really come at you. So let's keep you safe.

00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:05.579
Here's all of the ways that men are conditioned

00:29:05.579 --> 00:29:08.779
to be, I call it model man as well, because it's

00:29:08.779 --> 00:29:12.460
not like, it's not good boys. It's, it's this,

00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:14.660
you know, your father, your father passes away

00:29:14.660 --> 00:29:16.279
and at the funeral, all of the adults are saying,

00:29:16.279 --> 00:29:19.240
you're the man of the house. You're four. You

00:29:19.240 --> 00:29:22.359
know, it's that, that's how men are raised to

00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:24.579
behave. I don't know why I did that, but anyway.

00:29:25.620 --> 00:29:28.599
Yeah, no, that that's that's very true. That's

00:29:28.599 --> 00:29:31.480
no that that makes sense So for the woman listening

00:29:31.480 --> 00:29:33.819
who realizes she's spending an enormous amount

00:29:33.819 --> 00:29:36.519
of energy making sure everyone's okay with her

00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:38.740
What's the one thing you want her to practice

00:29:38.740 --> 00:29:41.660
this week? It's always a noticing notice when

00:29:41.660 --> 00:29:45.859
you feeling resentful Because that will tell

00:29:45.859 --> 00:29:49.359
you so much. So just listen listen to your emotions

00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:52.539
because They know our body knows but we've been

00:29:52.539 --> 00:29:54.970
trained not to listen And when we do that, what

00:29:54.970 --> 00:30:00.589
becomes possible for us? I don't believe that

00:30:00.589 --> 00:30:04.329
we can have it all. I think that was an absolute

00:30:04.329 --> 00:30:07.569
load of nonsense. You have to choose which parts

00:30:07.569 --> 00:30:10.329
of it you want and what scaffolding that you

00:30:10.329 --> 00:30:14.329
can put around yourself. And it's so easy to

00:30:14.329 --> 00:30:16.890
compare yourself to women you think have it all,

00:30:16.910 --> 00:30:20.440
but you look behind the curtain. Wizard of Oz

00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:23.000
style and notice that they have housekeepers

00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:28.720
and PAs and drivers and chefs and They're having

00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:30.339
all because they have all the people to have

00:30:30.339 --> 00:30:33.420
all I just read yesteryear. Oh my goodness. My

00:30:33.420 --> 00:30:37.059
mind is blown. You need to read it Okay. Yeah,

00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:38.880
no, you're right. No one I don't think anyone

00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:41.019
has it all and all at the same time, right? There's

00:30:41.019 --> 00:30:42.920
there's highs and lows and everything, but no

00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:45.789
one is doing it alone. Even if you're amazing,

00:30:46.049 --> 00:30:48.150
whether you're paying for it or support professionally,

00:30:48.390 --> 00:30:50.990
whatever it is, no one is doing it alone. And

00:30:50.990 --> 00:30:54.230
I think us getting over this mindset of the good

00:30:54.230 --> 00:30:56.509
girl mentality of thinking, we're going to be

00:30:56.509 --> 00:31:01.210
the superhero of our own story. It's not humanly

00:31:01.210 --> 00:31:03.390
possible. No, and there's so much pressure on

00:31:03.390 --> 00:31:06.059
it as well. Ugh, that's so crazy. Well, Michelle,

00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:08.200
this has been so great. If people want to connect

00:31:08.200 --> 00:31:10.240
with you, find your books, where is the best

00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:13.799
place to do that? Oh, I've got one of those beautifully

00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:16.359
unique names. I do know there's three Michelle

00:31:16.359 --> 00:31:18.660
Menikins on the planet, but you will very quickly

00:31:18.660 --> 00:31:22.420
find me. I spend too much time on LinkedIn, so

00:31:22.420 --> 00:31:25.329
that's where I will be playing. Awesome. Perfect.

00:31:25.430 --> 00:31:27.109
Well, we will connect all of that in the show

00:31:27.109 --> 00:31:28.730
notes. And thank you so much for being here.

00:31:28.849 --> 00:31:30.990
I really enjoyed this. You too. Michelle made

00:31:30.990 --> 00:31:32.769
such an important point in this conversation.

00:31:32.890 --> 00:31:35.130
You don't wake up one morning with perfect boundaries

00:31:35.130 --> 00:31:37.130
and suddenly stop caring what everyone thinks.

00:31:37.930 --> 00:31:40.690
Deprogramming the good girl happens in small

00:31:40.690 --> 00:31:43.529
moments. It starts by noticing the resentment,

00:31:44.009 --> 00:31:47.170
pausing before you automatically say yes, asking

00:31:47.170 --> 00:31:49.049
for the coffee instead of always being the one

00:31:49.049 --> 00:31:51.890
who makes it, and maybe letting someone be a

00:31:51.890 --> 00:31:54.490
little disappointed without rushing to fix it.

00:31:55.480 --> 00:31:58.980
Being a good person and being a good girl are

00:31:58.980 --> 00:32:01.519
not the same thing. You can still be thoughtful,

00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:04.480
supportive, and kind without abandoning yourself

00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.559
in the process. You can find Michelle's book,

00:32:07.640 --> 00:32:09.519
Good Girl Deprogramming, and more information

00:32:09.519 --> 00:32:12.200
about her work at michelleminikin .com. We'll

00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:14.460
link everything in the show notes. And if this

00:32:14.460 --> 00:32:16.460
episode made you recognize a few of your own

00:32:16.460 --> 00:32:18.700
good girl habits, send it to another woman who

00:32:18.700 --> 00:32:20.940
may need to hear it too. Make sure you follow

00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:22.700
Loud and Lifted wherever you listen so you don't

00:32:22.700 --> 00:32:25.319
miss what's coming next. Until next time, stay

00:32:25.319 --> 00:32:26.740
loud and keep lifting.