Walking on Broken Glass with Shannon Nutter

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We've been told for years that if women work

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hard, speak up, and lean in, we can break through

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the glass ceiling. But what happens after we

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break through and realize the floor beneath us

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is now covered in glass? Today, I'm talking with

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Shannon Nutter, a longtime financial services

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executive, board member, and co -author of Walking

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on Broken Glass, navigating the aftermath of

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the glass ceiling. Shannon has spent decades

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working in male -dominated industries and holding

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senior leadership roles. She has experienced

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firsthand what can happen when a successful woman's

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competence, influence, or leadership suddenly

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becomes a threat, and how quickly the story around

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her can change. We talk about what workplace

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bias actually looks like, why even highly accomplished

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women can find themselves questioning their own

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experiences, and how to recognize when the problem

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isn't your performance. It's the system around

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you. But this isn't just a conversation about

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everything that's wrong. Shannon shares some

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practical ways women can protect themselves,

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build political capital, strengthen their networks,

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and support one another when things start to

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go sideways. Let's get into it. Welcome to Allowed

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and Lifted, Shannon. Thank you so much for being

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here. Oh, thanks so much for having me, Betsy.

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So I'm really excited for this conversation because

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I'm sure all of us heard about the glass ceiling,

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right? And we talk about trying to break that

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glass ceiling and what we can do about it. And

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heck, we've even had podcasts where we've talked

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about glass walls, which has been super interesting.

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But today we're taking a little bit of a different

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approach to this. And we're talking about walking

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on broken glass. So let's start Shannon with

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you. And this is an amazing book that you and

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your partner wrote. How did this even come about?

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Obviously, you were breaking glass ceiling. So

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what happened after that occurred? Well, first,

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thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have

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this conversation with you. I will say that I'm

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reformed corporate America. I'm being reformed.

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But I did leave corporate America at at the end

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of 2023, had a very successful career spanning

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multiple industries. And I had spent three years

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building a business in Australia. And I was pretty

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burned out, as you might imagine, from that experience.

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And so in 2024, I really sort of stepped back.

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I was painting my house, redecorating a little

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bit, visiting friends and family. And I happened

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to meet Julia Carrion. And she was a Wall Street

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exec. So we shared a real history in financial

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services. We started connecting on LinkedIn and

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just really appreciated each other's perspectives.

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We scheduled a call as sometimes you do with

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strangers on LinkedIn. And we found that we really

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shared a very similar viewpoint. And we both

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had this idea of writing a book of how can we

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take our experiences and our knowledge about

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what it's like to be a successful woman in corporate

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America. And more than just mentoring people

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one -on -one, really share some of that experience

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more broadly. And so we thought, hey, let's try

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to write a book together, which writing any book

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is a big endeavor, writing it with a stranger,

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an even bigger endeavor, but it ended up. That

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we had a very similar perspective and we had

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a very similar voice as we began writing, which

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was critical. I think one funny thing is that

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we both believed that a big chunk of the book

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was going to be about strategy and execution.

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How to drive that in a big company. We did write

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three chapters on that. then we threw them away.

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They are not in the book anymore because what

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we discovered was that we really, we wanted to

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write a book about women in the workplace and

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all of the things that happened to women, the

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ways that we are minimized, the ways that we

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are still held back, even though it's 2026. Right.

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And more than that, how do we as women And allies,

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I will say. Sure. Recognize those things in the

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workplace. Identify them so that we can then

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take action to help ourselves and to help each

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other. Well, and I love that. And I don't want

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to say you minimize, but I mean, you and Julia

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both have. very impressive resumes, like great

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executive leadership positions in very large

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companies. So, I mean, people will look at your

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career and be like, wow, you were so successful.

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You were able to shatter the glass ceiling, right?

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Like all of those pieces. But yet that was not

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some like simple journey that you're like, oh,

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hey, I got to where I wanted to be. check the

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box, you know, like let's, let's move on. So

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I love that you're taking that experience that

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both of you had. And, and it's, it's funny, I

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was saying to you before we started, like, this

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isn't just a bitch fest, right? Like we know

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the data, like the data is not great, right?

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Like you could, there's so many things you can

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read with, with the stats and, and we need to

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be aware of that for sure. There's an education

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piece of that. But what I love about this book,

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is that you took all that, and then you're like,

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OK, what do we do with this? How do we take action?

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What's in our control? And how to move forward

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with that and to help other women. That's, of

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course, the best part and dear to my heart of

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supporting other women. So thank you for having

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that approach for that. Oh, thanks. You know,

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it's interesting because I do think, I mean,

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you were a CEO, right? And so a lot of people

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could look at you and say, oh, glass ceiling,

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tick. Women have reached the top in so many fields.

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And I don't know about you, but certainly for

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Julia and I, even though we were very successful,

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we would look around and be like, when is it

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going to get easier? When is it going to be a

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cakewalk? When are we suddenly going to get treated

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with the same kind of respect we see some of

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our peers being treated with? And it never came.

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And hence the title that we were like, sure,

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there have been breaks through the glass ceiling,

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but guess what? Now we got broken glass everywhere.

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And the path isn't clear. The path isn't clear

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for any of us. And I think it's easy as a younger

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woman, I think, to look up at more senior women

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and say, oh, when only I get there, then it'll

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be easy. Then I won't deal with any of this bias

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or double standards. But I don't know about you.

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I think the reality is you continue to deal with

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it regardless. Absolutely. And you're so right.

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And I remember thinking the first couple of times

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I went to events and, you know, if it was like

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an executive session or something, I look around

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the room and it's a bunch of, you know, older

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white men, right? And you're like, okay, I'm

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one of these things are not like the other, like

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just from a number standpoint, there weren't

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many of us. So then it was like, when I could

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find or talk to other women, nobody was talking

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about this. Like nobody mentioned, it was kind

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of like what you've gotten here. It's fine, everything's

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okay and fair. It's not like, oh, congrats, you're

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here. Now let's talk about the next game plan.

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So as women are getting to that point in their

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career, like what... What does happen, and how

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do we walk on broken glass? How do we approach

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this, essentially, for someone who's listening

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to this? It's interesting, because I think that

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a lot of us, at least my experience has been

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more women sort of want to put their heads down,

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buckle down, and just do great work. I just want

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to be here, and I just want to do great work.

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There's this expectation that when we do that

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and when the outcomes do inevitably come, because

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we've done great work, that we will be rewarded

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fair and square. Right. And it just doesn't always

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happen that way. I mean, I think we say in the

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book meritocracy is a myth. And I really believe

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that because it, we all know we can all cite

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probably at every organization we've ever been

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in the people, maybe even ourselves included,

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that have been high performing, delivered consistently,

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and yet there would be other people who really

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didn't, who moved up faster or further than we

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did or other people that we were witnessing.

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Absolutely. And I think one of the themes of

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this is like performance isn't always protection,

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right? And I think early in your career, you

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think the performance is going to get you to

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that next level and you're missing the visibility,

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you're missing the other pieces. And it's like,

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okay, well, now you have the visibility. Sure.

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Say you're at a higher level role, but your performance

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or even your team's performance at that standpoint,

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isn't going to protect you from, you know, the

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other things that are going on behind the scenes.

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Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And I think

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probably early in your career, your very first

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role or your first couple of roles, your performance

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does matter significantly. And it's not to say

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that it doesn't matter throughout your career.

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But we can look at so much data. There is just

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reams of data out there for people who are paying

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attention that you look at venture, you look

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at founders. Female founders get a higher ROI.

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for the investment dollars that they put into

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their organizations. And yet, they get a pittance

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of the VC funding that male startups get. You

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look at organizations that have more women in

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key roles. They outperform from a financial perspective

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companies that don't. Why aren't more companies

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putting more women in key leadership roles? You

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can just look at data point after data point,

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women that build more inclusive cultures, generate

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more innovation because they listen to more members

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of their team. One would think, one would think,

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that if you have leaders in organizations who

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say, I'm data -based, I make data -driven decisions,

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and I think we've probably all heard that, that

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they would be looking at some of this data and

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saying, oh my goodness, I need. to be capturing

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this type of talent and putting it in my organization.

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I need to be funding this type of talent. And

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yet it doesn't happen. And that's a great example

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of where performance is not enough. It's just

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not enough. And we have a story in the book,

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I don't know if you remember when you read it,

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about the orchestra and how in... Prior to the

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1970s, orchestras were highly male -dominated.

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And there was sort of this question of like,

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well, do men have innately more musical talent

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than women? Like, what is happening here? And

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as legend has it, in 1952, the Boston Symphony

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implemented blind auditions. and they put up

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a screen on the stage so that the judges couldn't

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see the people that were performing the music.

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And what they found was that they were still

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getting predominantly male selections for the

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orchestra. And so they asked each of the performers

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to take off their shoes. And what they found

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when they took off their shoes and the judges

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couldn't hear the difference between a men's

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dress shoe and a high heel, clicking across the

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stage that suddenly the selections became gender

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neutral. So crazy. And it is such a crazy example.

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I love that example because I think it highlights

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how subconscious so much of our bias is that

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I am sure those judges would say, oh, no, I'm

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not biased. I don't prefer men over women. And

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yet, even just hearing somebody's high heels

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made them less likely to pick them. So I think

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it's a great example of where there's so many

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biases. We all have them, by the way, that are

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in our subconscious that you just cannot believe

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that your performance alone is going to do it

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for you. Right, right. Well, and you know, you

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talk about how the system was built. by men for

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men. And at the time, I don't think it was malicious,

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right? Like it's when women weren't in the workplace,

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you know, they were at home, raising kids, doing

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whatever. So, and even I had never heard this,

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like the nine to five timeframe of working was

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like built on men's testosterone levels. And

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I was like, what? I have never heard of this.

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Optimized productivity for men, right? Wild,

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so wild. So, you know, you understand how it

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started, right? Like you understand, but then

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it's like, okay, well now we're years and decades

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past that. And to your point, there's that bias.

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So if someone who's listening to this is in any

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type of leadership, owns a company, how do you

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pay attention to that? That again, the orchestra

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example is perfect, right? Because they didn't

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necessarily try, but yes, we all have bias, of

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course. So how do we as the leaders or owners

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of companies be aware of that? I mean, I think

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first, it's acknowledging that there might be

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an issue. Maybe my company has an issue, and

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I'm just not even aware of it. I mean, you can't

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change what you're not aware of. Sure. And so

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I think it starts with looking at the data. What

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does your management team look like? What does

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your board look like? What do opportunities in

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your organization look like? Simple things. Well,

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I mean, here's an example of where AI could be

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a really interesting tool, right? women's personalities

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are discussed significantly more in their annual

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review than men's. I think the stat is like 78

00:14:00.700 --> 00:14:03.639
% of women's reviews have references to their

00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:07.580
personality versus just like 2 % of men's. Where

00:14:07.580 --> 00:14:10.500
can AI be scanning for that across an organization

00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:13.379
to say, actually, leaders, you're not commenting

00:14:13.379 --> 00:14:17.429
on their their work style or their work output

00:14:17.429 --> 00:14:19.809
or their competencies. You're talking about their

00:14:19.809 --> 00:14:22.389
personalities. Okay, get rid of that. But every

00:14:22.389 --> 00:14:25.700
leader can look at their team and say, do I have

00:14:25.700 --> 00:14:28.620
an evenly distributed team? And if I don't, why

00:14:28.620 --> 00:14:32.179
not? Do I innately think that, you know, men

00:14:32.179 --> 00:14:35.080
are more talented or whoever, right? What is

00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:37.879
your, what does your mentor pool look like? Who

00:14:37.879 --> 00:14:40.039
are you advocating for? Do you automatically

00:14:40.039 --> 00:14:43.279
think that a working mother is going to be less

00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:47.590
likely to take a a job that requires a move than

00:14:47.590 --> 00:14:50.129
a man, right? I mean, all of these things are

00:14:50.129 --> 00:14:54.070
assumptions. We have a whole host of self -assessment

00:14:54.070 --> 00:14:57.110
questions in the book that I think are really

00:14:57.110 --> 00:15:00.090
valuable to sit down and just say, you know,

00:15:00.250 --> 00:15:02.789
maybe, just maybe I'll have a little bit of bias.

00:15:03.570 --> 00:15:05.889
Right. And to your point, everybody has some

00:15:05.889 --> 00:15:08.169
form of bias, right? Like it's just human nature,

00:15:08.169 --> 00:15:10.950
but it's, it's being aware of that and kind of

00:15:10.950 --> 00:15:12.870
pulling it back in. And I think about too, when

00:15:12.870 --> 00:15:14.230
you were saying about the personality piece,

00:15:14.230 --> 00:15:17.049
you know, you talk about the Goldilocks, uh,

00:15:17.049 --> 00:15:19.429
you know, situation where syndrome, you know,

00:15:19.429 --> 00:15:21.549
you're always too much or too little. And I think

00:15:21.549 --> 00:15:24.070
about that, how, how often, especially you hear

00:15:24.070 --> 00:15:26.710
women talk about other women and, and it's, oh,

00:15:26.730 --> 00:15:28.710
she's too abrasive. Oh, she's too aggressive.

00:15:28.789 --> 00:15:31.009
Oh, she's too opinionated. Like, but then on

00:15:31.009 --> 00:15:32.490
the other, you know, the flip side of that. So

00:15:32.490 --> 00:15:34.970
it's like, It's even catching yourself in those

00:15:34.970 --> 00:15:37.149
kinds of conversations to your peers. I don't

00:15:37.149 --> 00:15:39.529
care if you're the boss or whoever, but that

00:15:39.529 --> 00:15:42.710
all starts to impact how people are perceiving

00:15:42.710 --> 00:15:44.909
someone when you have someone saying, oh, she's

00:15:44.909 --> 00:15:49.250
abrasive, she's aggressive. But it is so detrimental.

00:15:50.029 --> 00:15:52.990
I think women can be other women's worst enemies

00:15:52.990 --> 00:15:57.759
sometimes. we have a situation in society where

00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:00.340
if there's a strong woman, we tend to pick her

00:16:00.340 --> 00:16:02.279
apart in terms of her personality or clothing

00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:05.399
or looks, whatever that might be. And one of

00:16:05.399 --> 00:16:08.159
the issues we discuss in the book related to

00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:10.679
that is, is this Goldilocks syndrome of that?

00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.299
You never hear a woman just described as being

00:16:13.299 --> 00:16:17.320
strong. Oh, she's strategic. Oh, she's really

00:16:17.320 --> 00:16:20.960
quick with the numbers. Oh, she's really empathetic.

00:16:21.179 --> 00:16:23.620
There's always a but. There's always a but, dot,

00:16:23.639 --> 00:16:27.460
dot, dot. And when Julia and I were writing that,

00:16:28.220 --> 00:16:31.360
we really sat back and we asked ourselves, when

00:16:31.360 --> 00:16:36.350
was the last time you heard a woman just described

00:16:36.350 --> 00:16:40.710
in terms of her strengths? As in like, oh, Betsy,

00:16:40.889 --> 00:16:43.289
we should really think about her for that big

00:16:43.289 --> 00:16:47.870
project because she is strategic and she is decisive

00:16:47.870 --> 00:16:51.149
and that helps her teams execute on time and

00:16:51.149 --> 00:16:56.789
on schedule. Right. Period. That's in a sentence.

00:16:56.970 --> 00:17:01.629
Just period. And we honestly could not think

00:17:01.629 --> 00:17:05.109
of a time. And that was unbelievably sad to us.

00:17:05.250 --> 00:17:07.410
We were like, there's always a but. There's always

00:17:07.410 --> 00:17:11.210
a, but she rubs a few people the wrong way. But

00:17:11.210 --> 00:17:14.289
sometimes her family situation gets, whatever

00:17:14.289 --> 00:17:17.210
it is. It's like men of course have all of those

00:17:17.210 --> 00:17:19.509
same buts. Of course. But they don't necessarily

00:17:19.509 --> 00:17:21.710
get talked about. Well, and when you were saying

00:17:21.710 --> 00:17:22.970
that, you know, it makes me think of that I've

00:17:22.970 --> 00:17:25.029
heard so many times through my career is it's

00:17:25.029 --> 00:17:26.690
a woman could have all those positive traits,

00:17:26.990 --> 00:17:29.089
but she needs to work on her executive presence,

00:17:29.210 --> 00:17:31.630
which I hate that because like, again, I know

00:17:31.630 --> 00:17:34.049
that's not used with men, but so much more. I've

00:17:34.049 --> 00:17:35.950
heard it used for men because it has something

00:17:35.950 --> 00:17:37.890
to do with how she's showing up or her appearance

00:17:37.890 --> 00:17:40.250
or something, right? Like, and you can't be too

00:17:40.250 --> 00:17:42.609
pretty, but you better not have wrinkles, but

00:17:42.609 --> 00:17:43.950
you better not like, you know, like it's all

00:17:43.950 --> 00:17:45.670
those things where it's like, yeah. Okay, what

00:17:45.670 --> 00:17:47.410
am I supposed to do? Who am I supposed to be?

00:17:47.549 --> 00:17:50.250
So that plays into all of it. And I think that

00:17:50.250 --> 00:17:53.509
plays into the politics piece too. Which the

00:17:53.509 --> 00:17:55.230
other thing that I love that you talked about

00:17:55.230 --> 00:17:57.730
was the fact that there's always two org charts,

00:17:57.890 --> 00:17:59.630
right? Like that there's the official one and

00:17:59.630 --> 00:18:02.230
then there's the invisible one. So what does

00:18:02.230 --> 00:18:04.190
that invisible chart look like and what do we

00:18:04.190 --> 00:18:06.970
do about that? You know, it's interesting because

00:18:06.970 --> 00:18:09.990
I think along with the just put your head down,

00:18:10.049 --> 00:18:13.569
get work done. do a great job, at least in my

00:18:13.569 --> 00:18:16.670
experience, more women that I've known have sort

00:18:16.670 --> 00:18:20.650
of said, look, I know there's politics, but I

00:18:20.650 --> 00:18:22.250
really don't want to deal with that. I just want

00:18:22.250 --> 00:18:26.410
to come in and do my work. And I would say that

00:18:26.410 --> 00:18:29.289
Julia and I agree that we've been like that for

00:18:29.289 --> 00:18:32.589
much of our careers. And then there came a point

00:18:32.589 --> 00:18:36.009
where we said, well, Actually, you know, we have

00:18:36.009 --> 00:18:38.789
to pay attention to this because it literally

00:18:38.789 --> 00:18:43.890
is just an aspect of your company. It is one

00:18:43.890 --> 00:18:46.250
of the ways your company gets things done. And

00:18:46.250 --> 00:18:48.809
so you have to pay attention to it. And if you

00:18:48.809 --> 00:18:51.049
think of it that way, you know, it's a little

00:18:51.049 --> 00:18:53.250
easier maybe to get your head around to say,

00:18:53.369 --> 00:18:55.910
hey, I just have to pay attention to how work

00:18:55.910 --> 00:18:59.210
actually gets done at my company. And we cite

00:18:59.210 --> 00:19:03.250
the work of Professor Kathleen Reardon. from

00:19:03.250 --> 00:19:06.910
USC in the book. And she has this simple four

00:19:06.910 --> 00:19:10.789
-part model of how politicized is your company.

00:19:12.349 --> 00:19:17.089
And it goes from minimally and moderately politicized

00:19:17.089 --> 00:19:21.069
to highly and pathologically politicized. And

00:19:21.069 --> 00:19:24.049
pathologically, you can imagine, are these highly,

00:19:24.150 --> 00:19:27.009
highly toxic environments. But if you think of

00:19:27.009 --> 00:19:30.190
the minimally and moderately politicized. These

00:19:30.190 --> 00:19:32.809
are companies where there's a lot of trust, there's

00:19:32.809 --> 00:19:35.869
a lot of teamwork, there's clear rules for how

00:19:35.869 --> 00:19:38.589
to get things done, and people generally abide

00:19:38.589 --> 00:19:41.769
by those rules. And if there's conflict, conflict

00:19:41.769 --> 00:19:45.849
gets sorted out pretty easily. But in these more

00:19:45.849 --> 00:19:48.470
highly and pathologically politicized environments,

00:19:49.150 --> 00:19:51.289
which I'd venture to say probably includes a

00:19:51.289 --> 00:19:54.150
lot of the bigger companies, or at least divisions

00:19:54.150 --> 00:19:57.730
or teams within some of those companies, you

00:19:57.730 --> 00:20:01.309
get a lot of in and out groups. You get a lot

00:20:01.309 --> 00:20:04.009
of, OK, those are the rules, but nobody really

00:20:04.009 --> 00:20:06.390
follows the rules. Here's how you actually work

00:20:06.390 --> 00:20:09.369
around all of those things. And there tends to

00:20:09.369 --> 00:20:11.549
be a lot of conflict, and it's just not resolved.

00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:16.819
in sort of clear, understandable ways. And so

00:20:16.819 --> 00:20:19.420
I think in any of those environments, but particularly

00:20:19.420 --> 00:20:24.930
the more politicized, right? It's about understanding

00:20:24.930 --> 00:20:27.329
within your organization, right? Who are the

00:20:27.329 --> 00:20:30.069
influencers? How do decisions actually get made?

00:20:30.529 --> 00:20:33.609
How do people actually get onto projects or get

00:20:33.609 --> 00:20:36.849
given promotions, right? And who connects with

00:20:36.849 --> 00:20:40.670
who socially? It's like... Learn what the unspoken

00:20:40.670 --> 00:20:45.130
things are within your organization, not so that

00:20:45.130 --> 00:20:48.589
you can play that game better necessarily, but

00:20:48.589 --> 00:20:52.509
that you can be mindful of what is actually happening.

00:20:53.190 --> 00:20:55.109
Yes, maybe you'll connect to some of those people

00:20:55.109 --> 00:20:57.210
that are in groups. You'll find out whether or

00:20:57.210 --> 00:20:59.750
not any of your mentors or sponsors are highly

00:20:59.750 --> 00:21:02.869
connected within the organization, but at least

00:21:02.869 --> 00:21:06.640
so that you're not surprised. When things do

00:21:06.640 --> 00:21:08.400
happen within the company because I think that's

00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:09.960
what happens, right? You're like, how did that

00:21:09.960 --> 00:21:13.519
person get promoted? Get this big, you know job

00:21:13.519 --> 00:21:17.359
whatever it is and And then you look around and

00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:19.660
you go, oh, okay, they are connected to all of

00:21:19.660 --> 00:21:23.359
these people. And this is how things actually

00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:25.859
move in the organization, regardless of what

00:21:25.859 --> 00:21:30.519
is said in the brochures. Right. That was not

00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:34.259
in the HR video. And that goes back to relationships,

00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:37.059
right? We talk a lot about the importance of

00:21:37.059 --> 00:21:38.900
networking and building your circle and sponsors

00:21:38.900 --> 00:21:42.019
and mentors and all that stuff. is 100 % important,

00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:44.500
but the politics kind of plays into it because

00:21:44.500 --> 00:21:46.900
you also don't want to be aligned with the wrong

00:21:46.900 --> 00:21:49.319
person, which is crazy and sometimes sad, but

00:21:49.319 --> 00:21:51.299
that's the reality. I mean, I had that happen

00:21:51.299 --> 00:21:53.319
to me in my past where I was like, what do I

00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:54.980
need to do to be able to get to the next level?

00:21:55.079 --> 00:21:58.039
And they were like, a very high level executive

00:21:58.039 --> 00:22:00.559
said to me, oh, well, the problem is that you're

00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:02.420
aligned with somebody who wasn't even there anymore,

00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:04.599
like another executive. And it was sort of like,

00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.059
okay, well. a little too late. But I mean, there

00:22:07.059 --> 00:22:08.799
was a political piece of that where it was like,

00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:10.859
okay, well, at least I know where I stand now.

00:22:10.859 --> 00:22:12.519
And I know that I can't do anything about that

00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:14.960
alignment. She's gone. But here I am getting,

00:22:14.960 --> 00:22:17.400
you know, dinged for an alignment of because

00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:20.519
she wasn't politically correct anymore, essentially.

00:22:21.099 --> 00:22:23.400
So, you know, it really ties into your relationships

00:22:23.400 --> 00:22:26.079
from, again, it's not being strategic. It's being

00:22:26.079 --> 00:22:27.880
strategic. I don't want to say you're using people

00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:30.200
or manipulating the situation, but it's just

00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:34.059
part of the corporate world, unfortunately. We

00:22:34.059 --> 00:22:36.319
all want to create a great network within our

00:22:36.319 --> 00:22:38.259
organizations. We all want to build political

00:22:38.259 --> 00:22:42.019
capital in terms of our own brand. Who do we

00:22:42.019 --> 00:22:45.019
stand for? What do we stand for? When people

00:22:45.019 --> 00:22:47.740
say our name, what do they know us for? All of

00:22:47.740 --> 00:22:49.720
those things are political things to a certain

00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:51.960
extent. But like you said, sometimes you can

00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:54.640
be aligned to a mentor or an advocate, and guess

00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:57.000
what? Maybe they were in the in -group at one

00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:59.259
point within your organization, but now they're

00:22:59.259 --> 00:23:02.309
not anymore. And in your mind, you're still like,

00:23:02.390 --> 00:23:04.869
oh, this person is more senior to me. Therefore,

00:23:04.970 --> 00:23:07.349
they must be helpful. They must be influential.

00:23:07.890 --> 00:23:10.289
And you haven't really read the tea leaves to

00:23:10.289 --> 00:23:13.170
say, actually, they're sort of on the outs. And

00:23:13.170 --> 00:23:16.589
they're not as helpful to you as they once were.

00:23:16.930 --> 00:23:19.569
And so you have to be mindful of that before

00:23:19.569 --> 00:23:21.670
you've completely hitched your wagon to their

00:23:21.670 --> 00:23:24.819
wagon. Right. They drive off the cliff. Yes.

00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:28.220
It's so true. Then you're like, why am I not

00:23:28.220 --> 00:23:30.660
getting this promotion or this project? Then

00:23:30.660 --> 00:23:33.579
it's like, you can work an extra 10 hours a week.

00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:35.539
Again, going back to the performance, that's

00:23:35.539 --> 00:23:38.079
not going to get you where you want to go. I

00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:39.539
think knowing not to beat your head against the

00:23:39.539 --> 00:23:42.500
wall. Certain things, right? Rather than being

00:23:42.500 --> 00:23:44.960
frustrated. Right. Yeah, you just have to understand

00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:47.819
that. So one of the key points in your book is

00:23:47.819 --> 00:23:50.700
about the takedown. So let's talk about the takedown.

00:23:50.740 --> 00:23:53.039
Because reading that chapter, I was like twitching

00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:55.460
the whole time. Because I've seen it happen to

00:23:55.460 --> 00:23:59.539
others. I've had it happen. So what is a takedown?

00:23:59.740 --> 00:24:04.160
Let's start there. So we created or named this

00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:07.980
thing, the takedown, because Julia and I, when

00:24:07.980 --> 00:24:11.279
we were writing the book, we we knew 10 women

00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:13.819
between us who were getting pushed out of their

00:24:13.819 --> 00:24:16.440
organizations, really high performers. And we

00:24:16.440 --> 00:24:20.680
were like, what is this? This seems like there's

00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:23.759
this deliberate takedown of really talented people.

00:24:25.660 --> 00:24:29.019
And so I wrote a LinkedIn post about it in the

00:24:29.019 --> 00:24:31.420
hopes that some women would reach out and tell

00:24:31.420 --> 00:24:33.640
us their stories because we didn't want just

00:24:33.640 --> 00:24:38.279
our small circle of stories. That post went viral

00:24:38.279 --> 00:24:45.289
in early 2025 and I had hundreds of women, mostly

00:24:45.289 --> 00:24:49.349
women, couple men, who reached out to say, this

00:24:49.349 --> 00:24:52.349
is happening to me, this has happened to me,

00:24:52.569 --> 00:24:55.970
and let me tell you my story. And that's why

00:24:55.970 --> 00:24:58.049
we ended up writing an entire chapter on it.

00:24:58.670 --> 00:25:01.890
So did all these interviews, collected all this

00:25:01.890 --> 00:25:07.369
data, and it was really astounding. Was very

00:25:07.369 --> 00:25:09.789
clear once we took a look at the data that that

00:25:09.789 --> 00:25:13.170
there there is a playbook There is a playbook.

00:25:13.170 --> 00:25:15.710
There is a type of person that gets taken down

00:25:15.710 --> 00:25:20.210
We were interviewing women, but the men I interviewed

00:25:20.210 --> 00:25:23.750
Had exactly the same criteria right that they

00:25:23.750 --> 00:25:27.410
tend to be Really honest candid people. They're

00:25:27.410 --> 00:25:29.690
bold. They're willing to challenge the status

00:25:29.690 --> 00:25:32.190
quo. They're willing to speak truth to power

00:25:32.190 --> 00:25:36.450
They're not a yes, man They are known for respectful

00:25:36.450 --> 00:25:40.390
debate. They have high integrity, and they have

00:25:40.390 --> 00:25:44.329
a history of high performance. And it was so

00:25:44.329 --> 00:25:46.690
fascinating that literally by the time I was

00:25:46.690 --> 00:25:50.289
getting to interview number 100, I was like,

00:25:50.470 --> 00:25:53.170
oh, so describe yourself to me, right? What type

00:25:53.170 --> 00:25:55.250
of person are you? What are you known for at

00:25:55.250 --> 00:25:57.210
work? And I just had my little chocolate. You

00:25:57.210 --> 00:25:59.369
already started writing. I could tick the box.

00:25:59.490 --> 00:26:01.529
I knew exactly what they were going to say. And

00:26:01.529 --> 00:26:05.309
it was to a T. Every single person described

00:26:05.309 --> 00:26:07.390
themselves with some of those characteristics.

00:26:08.630 --> 00:26:12.740
And these are the kinds of things that I would

00:26:12.740 --> 00:26:16.759
venture every company has on their recruiting

00:26:16.759 --> 00:26:22.359
list. Like, oh, we value people who challenge

00:26:22.359 --> 00:26:25.039
the status quo and keep driving us towards innovation

00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:29.759
and are willing to debate. And obviously, high

00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:33.990
integrity, high ethics. And yet. These are the

00:26:33.990 --> 00:26:38.740
people that ultimately threaten somebody in power

00:26:38.740 --> 00:26:41.960
or challenge the status quo just a little bit

00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:47.500
too much. And we were able to identify through

00:26:47.500 --> 00:26:50.039
this as well, you know, what are some of the,

00:26:50.710 --> 00:26:54.890
I'll say trigger points for organizations or

00:26:54.890 --> 00:26:57.869
for people to watch out for. where a takedown

00:26:57.869 --> 00:27:00.450
might occur and it, you know, it's things like

00:27:00.450 --> 00:27:04.170
a reorganization. Your company has a merger acquisition.

00:27:04.970 --> 00:27:08.430
Um, you get a new boss, you know, then there's

00:27:08.430 --> 00:27:10.849
sort of the aspects I just spoke about, like

00:27:10.849 --> 00:27:14.650
you've challenged somebody in power and you've

00:27:14.650 --> 00:27:17.990
challenged the status quo or sometimes it's a

00:27:17.990 --> 00:27:20.829
performance sort of threat. You know, you've

00:27:20.829 --> 00:27:24.200
really outperformed. Maybe you questioned your

00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:27.700
compensation or some other aspect of the company,

00:27:28.680 --> 00:27:33.319
but there were three big buckets of moments where

00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:35.519
it's like, oh, if any of these things happened,

00:27:35.960 --> 00:27:38.420
and now you start to see these signs and symptoms

00:27:38.420 --> 00:27:43.700
that we talk about. Well, and going back to the

00:27:43.700 --> 00:27:45.920
politics piece of it, I've seen it happen where

00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:48.779
there was a change in power, right? At the executive

00:27:48.779 --> 00:27:51.079
level and another executive maybe wasn't aligned

00:27:51.079 --> 00:27:53.119
with that person when they were peers. And now

00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:56.259
that person is the big boss. And suddenly it's

00:27:56.259 --> 00:27:58.279
like, oh, well, I didn't like you when I was

00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:00.660
here. Now I really am going to take this opportunity

00:28:00.660 --> 00:28:04.650
to, you know. redo the leadership team. So in

00:28:04.650 --> 00:28:06.589
that standpoint, too, where everybody's going

00:28:06.589 --> 00:28:09.170
along, then there's a change in power or leadership

00:28:09.170 --> 00:28:12.829
at the top. And it just moves everything around.

00:28:13.470 --> 00:28:16.309
Yeah. And it's, you know, what's unfortunate,

00:28:16.490 --> 00:28:19.650
too, is that, you know, from the interviews,

00:28:19.869 --> 00:28:22.309
most people said that it occurred over the course

00:28:22.309 --> 00:28:25.970
of about 12 to 24 months, you know, that that

00:28:25.970 --> 00:28:28.430
was the range of time we're now looking back.

00:28:28.569 --> 00:28:31.809
They're like, I think I was sort of being positioned

00:28:31.809 --> 00:28:35.089
for this over the course of like a year or more.

00:28:35.490 --> 00:28:38.250
But then often it took people about six months

00:28:38.250 --> 00:28:42.029
to recognize that it was happening because just

00:28:42.029 --> 00:28:45.750
something felt off, something felt wrong. But

00:28:45.750 --> 00:28:48.029
as we've already discussed, they were a bit like,

00:28:48.130 --> 00:28:50.410
you know what? I'm just going to try to fix that.

00:28:50.509 --> 00:28:52.349
It's probably a communication problem. Let me

00:28:52.349 --> 00:28:55.250
communicate better. Oh, maybe it's this issue.

00:28:55.329 --> 00:28:57.900
Let me just try to fix that. But of course, these

00:28:57.900 --> 00:29:01.779
aren't fixable issues, right? I mean, maybe you

00:29:01.779 --> 00:29:03.579
can, if your company's big enough, maybe you

00:29:03.579 --> 00:29:06.680
can pick up and move and go to another team and

00:29:06.680 --> 00:29:09.440
problem resolved. But if you're staying within

00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:14.119
the group that you're in, it's probably not going

00:29:14.119 --> 00:29:16.160
to change. It's certainly not related to your

00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:18.180
performance because as we already noted, you're

00:29:18.180 --> 00:29:21.369
an eye performer. Yeah. So are there any red

00:29:21.369 --> 00:29:25.089
flags to be looking for if you're like, oh, I

00:29:25.089 --> 00:29:27.470
feel like maybe this sounds familiar. What are

00:29:27.470 --> 00:29:29.730
those sort of maybe flags that many of us miss

00:29:29.730 --> 00:29:32.390
when we're in it? Yeah. I mean, I think we've

00:29:32.390 --> 00:29:36.910
got two pages worth of signs and symptoms. But

00:29:36.910 --> 00:29:39.390
it could be things like canceled one -on -ones

00:29:39.390 --> 00:29:42.710
or canceled skip levels, being excluded from

00:29:42.710 --> 00:29:45.089
meetings that you used to be a part of or decisions

00:29:45.089 --> 00:29:47.990
that you used to have some level of input to.

00:29:48.710 --> 00:29:51.910
constantly changing job descriptions or KPIs

00:29:51.910 --> 00:29:55.009
or your lines of reporting. Maybe you've done

00:29:55.009 --> 00:29:57.309
something amazing and you're not getting recognized

00:29:57.309 --> 00:29:59.769
for it or you're not getting a bonus for it,

00:29:59.970 --> 00:30:02.769
being micromanaged, certainly an unexpected pip

00:30:02.769 --> 00:30:06.309
after years of great performance. I would say

00:30:06.309 --> 00:30:08.549
if you get the sense that you're being gaslit,

00:30:09.809 --> 00:30:12.829
I think one of the things, and I don't know if

00:30:12.829 --> 00:30:14.970
it's more true for women. I certainly know it

00:30:14.970 --> 00:30:19.119
is true for women we've spoken to is that There's

00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:21.819
something that happens that your spidey senses

00:30:21.819 --> 00:30:26.440
are a tingling. And they're like, that just doesn't

00:30:26.440 --> 00:30:31.599
quite feel right. And yet most of us are so busy

00:30:31.730 --> 00:30:35.049
that we just sort of push it away and we try

00:30:35.049 --> 00:30:37.289
to ignore it. I'm sure that can't be anything.

00:30:37.710 --> 00:30:40.789
Let me just go on and keep working. And then

00:30:40.789 --> 00:30:43.450
in retrospect, it turns out that those, that

00:30:43.450 --> 00:30:46.529
intuition. Oh yeah. That like, this just isn't

00:30:46.529 --> 00:30:50.349
kosher was right. Yeah. And I can think of that

00:30:50.349 --> 00:30:53.789
in my own journey when I was like, hmm, I wasn't

00:30:53.789 --> 00:30:55.970
asked to speak at this and I normally am because

00:30:55.970 --> 00:30:59.210
it's a public whatever facing with investors.

00:30:59.670 --> 00:31:01.950
And I just remember some of those times where

00:31:01.950 --> 00:31:03.470
like, okay, maybe I'm just being paranoid. Maybe

00:31:03.470 --> 00:31:05.430
I'm being sensitive. But the reality is most

00:31:05.430 --> 00:31:06.690
of the time you're not being paranoid. You're

00:31:06.690 --> 00:31:08.769
not being sensitive. There's a reason for it.

00:31:08.849 --> 00:31:10.809
And it's sort of like stringing it all together,

00:31:10.970 --> 00:31:12.210
right? Like something might happen. It might

00:31:12.210 --> 00:31:14.430
just be one thing and it's just, it's completely

00:31:14.430 --> 00:31:17.319
not. a bigger issue, but it's sort of like when

00:31:17.319 --> 00:31:19.259
these little things start stringing together,

00:31:19.500 --> 00:31:21.619
it's like a pattern, I guess, is, you know, the

00:31:21.619 --> 00:31:23.720
word that you're looking for is a pattern of

00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:25.220
like, wait a minute, these things are starting

00:31:25.220 --> 00:31:27.180
to connect now. In hindsight, I realize that

00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:30.259
this is not, you know, where I want this to be

00:31:30.259 --> 00:31:32.779
headed. So I think it's hard when you're in it,

00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:35.519
but it is sometimes it's, I think, listening

00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:37.720
to your gut and just being aware and realizing

00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:40.680
maybe you aren't paranoid, right? Like, that

00:31:40.680 --> 00:31:44.869
may be the case. Well, and it's not one thing,

00:31:45.250 --> 00:31:47.829
right? Yes. One canceled one -on -one. Right.

00:31:48.269 --> 00:31:50.430
Don't be that paranoid. It doesn't mean that

00:31:50.430 --> 00:31:56.400
your job is in jeopardy. But it's like you said,

00:31:56.819 --> 00:31:59.220
when these things start to get strung together

00:31:59.220 --> 00:32:02.470
and And you got a perfect example, like, gosh,

00:32:02.509 --> 00:32:05.009
usually I'm asked to speak at this thing. That

00:32:05.009 --> 00:32:07.769
seems strange. Why wasn't I asked to speak? Nobody

00:32:07.769 --> 00:32:10.210
mentioned it to me. You know, that all of a sudden

00:32:10.210 --> 00:32:12.450
you're going, OK, wait a minute. Now, was there

00:32:12.450 --> 00:32:14.190
anything else? Oh, yeah, actually there were

00:32:14.190 --> 00:32:17.259
these other couple things too. Yep. No, it all

00:32:17.259 --> 00:32:19.680
starts to kind of tie together. So yeah, it's

00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:23.000
always good. So I don't like to be too doom and

00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.420
gloom. The takedown does make me, like I said,

00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:29.650
it makes me twitch. But as someone's listening

00:32:29.650 --> 00:32:32.990
to this, your whole goal, your and Julia's goal

00:32:32.990 --> 00:32:36.029
is this, is to provide women with the tools and

00:32:36.029 --> 00:32:40.410
resources essentially to band together, I guess,

00:32:40.589 --> 00:32:44.309
work together to move forward. So what do we

00:32:44.309 --> 00:32:46.809
do? When somebody reads this book, which I strongly

00:32:46.809 --> 00:32:49.009
encourage, what do you want them to take? And

00:32:49.009 --> 00:32:51.190
I love that you have takeaways and the recaps

00:32:51.190 --> 00:32:53.329
in each chapter, but what do you want the readers

00:32:53.329 --> 00:32:57.619
and women essentially to do with this book? I

00:32:57.619 --> 00:32:59.859
mean, I think, one, we want them to recognize

00:32:59.859 --> 00:33:05.319
where these biases and double standards take

00:33:05.319 --> 00:33:09.079
place in their workplaces. Because I think we've

00:33:09.079 --> 00:33:13.480
all gotten so used to them that we just, I mean,

00:33:13.480 --> 00:33:16.259
we might roll our eyes at each other, but we

00:33:16.259 --> 00:33:20.380
don't necessarily take action. And a good example

00:33:20.380 --> 00:33:23.980
is a woman's idea gets attributed to somebody

00:33:23.980 --> 00:33:27.339
else during the course of a meeting. says the

00:33:27.339 --> 00:33:29.339
same thing five minutes later, and everybody's

00:33:29.339 --> 00:33:33.940
like, oh, George, amazing idea. And you all look

00:33:33.940 --> 00:33:36.779
at each other like, I'm pretty sure I said that

00:33:36.779 --> 00:33:40.640
five minutes earlier. So things like that, instead

00:33:40.640 --> 00:33:44.079
of just being frustrated by it, where do each

00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:48.390
of us need to have a go -to phrase? We just know,

00:33:48.549 --> 00:33:51.650
we're comfortable with, we've practiced in our

00:33:51.650 --> 00:33:53.809
car or wherever we want to practice things to

00:33:53.809 --> 00:33:56.670
say, oh, George, thanks for chiming in. Betsy's

00:33:56.670 --> 00:34:00.130
idea, I'm glad it's getting traction. But maybe

00:34:00.130 --> 00:34:03.109
she can add on a few thoughts of what she was

00:34:03.109 --> 00:34:07.289
trying to say earlier. Whatever that is, have

00:34:07.289 --> 00:34:10.230
some of those things at the ready. So recognize

00:34:10.230 --> 00:34:12.170
some of these things we talk about in the book.

00:34:12.489 --> 00:34:17.429
have some of these little phrases ready where

00:34:17.429 --> 00:34:20.010
you feel comfortable. They sound like you. You

00:34:20.010 --> 00:34:21.989
don't feel like you're attacking anybody. You're

00:34:21.989 --> 00:34:23.929
just sort of comfortably putting some of these

00:34:23.929 --> 00:34:27.269
things out. I think there's also the document

00:34:27.269 --> 00:34:31.710
your achievements. That sounds easy. And I think

00:34:31.710 --> 00:34:34.289
how many of us at the end of the year have gone,

00:34:34.829 --> 00:34:36.929
oh, shoot, I got to document what I did this

00:34:36.929 --> 00:34:40.409
year. And let me go find the data that demonstrates

00:34:40.409 --> 00:34:44.570
I did X, Y, Z. I think we should all be better

00:34:44.570 --> 00:34:47.989
about having that at the ready, asking clients

00:34:47.989 --> 00:34:51.530
or peers to talk about what a great job we did

00:34:51.530 --> 00:34:58.909
on a project, CC our boss, file that stuff away

00:34:58.909 --> 00:35:03.690
so that you've got it at any singular moment.

00:35:04.630 --> 00:35:07.150
Certainly keeping a strong network, not just

00:35:07.150 --> 00:35:09.030
inside the company, which I think many of us

00:35:09.030 --> 00:35:12.820
do, but outside the company as well. I think

00:35:12.820 --> 00:35:16.320
a lot of people lose their sort of professional

00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:21.340
voice in many companies, right? They might promote

00:35:21.340 --> 00:35:24.380
what the company wants everyone to promote, and

00:35:24.380 --> 00:35:26.699
that's about it. They stop sort of having their

00:35:26.699 --> 00:35:30.260
own opinion, which can be a problem if you actually

00:35:30.260 --> 00:35:33.059
ever are let go that now you don't really have

00:35:33.059 --> 00:35:35.599
this sort of external network, this more wide

00:35:35.599 --> 00:35:37.760
ranging network that could help you get a job

00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:40.440
or speaking engagements or consulting or whatever

00:35:40.440 --> 00:35:43.539
you end up. you know, doing. And I'd say pay

00:35:43.539 --> 00:35:46.159
attention to your instincts, right? If something

00:35:46.159 --> 00:35:48.800
starts to feel wrong, start to document that

00:35:48.860 --> 00:35:51.920
and keep the receipts because that might help

00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:55.940
you down the pike as well if your company does

00:35:55.940 --> 00:35:58.679
let you go and you want to reach out to a lawyer

00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:01.539
or you're in a situation where you have to negotiate

00:36:01.539 --> 00:36:05.760
severance, right? You want the data. Yeah, absolutely.

00:36:06.300 --> 00:36:08.219
And you know, the whole reason why I started

00:36:08.219 --> 00:36:09.960
this podcast and I've said this on a couple different

00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:12.920
episodes is because, you know, we get very hung

00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:15.219
up on the boys club and the boys club ties into

00:36:15.219 --> 00:36:17.579
all this, right? They're part of it. They're

00:36:17.579 --> 00:36:20.289
the driver of it. Are we ever going to break

00:36:20.289 --> 00:36:21.869
through the boys club? I don't know. And half

00:36:21.869 --> 00:36:23.869
the time, I don't even, all boys clubs aren't

00:36:23.869 --> 00:36:26.429
malicious necessarily or intentional, but you

00:36:26.429 --> 00:36:29.050
know, it's how do we build that girls community

00:36:29.050 --> 00:36:31.050
or girls club, whatever you want to call it,

00:36:31.110 --> 00:36:33.030
where we're supporting each other and having

00:36:33.030 --> 00:36:35.889
those voices. And, and as we get into those leadership

00:36:35.889 --> 00:36:38.969
level roles to bring other women along, you know,

00:36:38.969 --> 00:36:40.369
I think that's the piece, like that's what we

00:36:40.369 --> 00:36:41.849
can control, right? We're never going to control

00:36:41.849 --> 00:36:43.769
the men, the boys club, it's going to happen.

00:36:43.989 --> 00:36:46.409
And sometimes it's not bad, right? But we have

00:36:46.409 --> 00:36:49.119
to. control what we can control and influence

00:36:49.119 --> 00:36:52.000
where we can and that's not gonna be alone. It's

00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:54.340
with people like you and Julia with your voices

00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:57.599
and bringing light to those conversations and

00:36:57.599 --> 00:36:59.559
making it normal to talk about, right? Like I

00:36:59.559 --> 00:37:01.659
think especially the takedown, it makes people

00:37:01.659 --> 00:37:03.340
uncomfortable and people don't typically, well,

00:37:03.340 --> 00:37:05.460
you had hundreds of women reach out, but people

00:37:05.460 --> 00:37:07.440
typically aren't talking about that with their

00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:09.960
little circle of friends or we're in a professional

00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:12.420
setting, so let's normalize this, let's talk

00:37:12.420 --> 00:37:15.639
about it. And again, maybe some behavior is not

00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:18.670
malicious. A lot of it is. But some of it may

00:37:18.670 --> 00:37:21.090
be because of that bias. So how do we just acknowledge

00:37:21.090 --> 00:37:23.829
it? And for people who can change or will change,

00:37:24.510 --> 00:37:26.469
then you're giving them that space and that opportunity.

00:37:26.809 --> 00:37:29.210
So I just appreciate that from the two of you

00:37:29.210 --> 00:37:32.389
and from this book for sure. Yeah, I think we're

00:37:32.389 --> 00:37:34.710
big proponents of women helping other women.

00:37:35.369 --> 00:37:38.369
We certainly do not think all men are bad. There

00:37:38.369 --> 00:37:40.730
are so many great, both Julie and I have had

00:37:40.730 --> 00:37:43.750
amazing male mentors and advocates over the years.

00:37:45.449 --> 00:37:48.210
And we also recognize, which we say in the book,

00:37:48.389 --> 00:37:51.210
you won't love every woman you ever meet. Right.

00:37:51.269 --> 00:37:54.829
Correct. And you won't necessarily think they

00:37:54.829 --> 00:37:57.929
are the bee's knees, right? That's fine. You

00:37:57.929 --> 00:37:59.989
don't have to. And you don't like every man you

00:37:59.989 --> 00:38:04.809
meet either. But at least don't throw more hurdles

00:38:04.809 --> 00:38:08.769
in her path, right? She is facing the same hurdles

00:38:08.769 --> 00:38:11.710
you're facing. And so just don't make it harder

00:38:11.710 --> 00:38:14.550
for her. If a woman needs to pass you, give her

00:38:14.550 --> 00:38:17.659
a passing lane. And I think that's at least a

00:38:17.659 --> 00:38:20.199
starting point, right? Don't attack other women.

00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:24.059
Don't throw more hurdles in their path. And then

00:38:24.059 --> 00:38:28.380
how do we really collaborate instead of competing

00:38:28.380 --> 00:38:32.599
to say, well, gosh, Betsy, we're going to go

00:38:32.599 --> 00:38:34.639
into the same meeting later. I'm going to raise

00:38:34.639 --> 00:38:39.380
an idea. And I feel a little vulnerable doing

00:38:39.380 --> 00:38:42.119
that. Would you back me up during the meeting?

00:38:42.699 --> 00:38:45.679
with that idea, assuming you like the idea, assuming

00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:48.139
you're willing to back me up, that we just talk

00:38:48.139 --> 00:38:52.179
about that in advance and then we go in with

00:38:52.179 --> 00:38:56.719
a plan for how to do that. Likewise, you're in

00:38:56.719 --> 00:39:01.519
a meeting and there's a new project being discussed,

00:39:01.679 --> 00:39:03.639
right? Why wouldn't you throw a woman's name

00:39:03.639 --> 00:39:08.519
in the pot? Right. Collaboration, bonus discussions,

00:39:09.079 --> 00:39:12.679
all of these are opportunities to be calling

00:39:12.679 --> 00:39:15.559
out whether you see bias or double standards.

00:39:15.699 --> 00:39:20.420
And again, I think the key is like having, knowing

00:39:20.420 --> 00:39:22.300
what you might see because you've probably seen

00:39:22.300 --> 00:39:25.139
it before, but also then having these little

00:39:25.139 --> 00:39:27.059
phrases of like, oh gosh, you know, we're talking

00:39:27.059 --> 00:39:28.960
about Betsy and George and it seems like we're

00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:31.380
talking about very similar outcomes, but for

00:39:31.380 --> 00:39:35.420
some reason we're talking about Betsy's personality.

00:39:37.400 --> 00:39:40.199
Maybe we can get back to the business outcomes,

00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:45.039
right? Again, it's just like, what are the phrases

00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:46.980
that we could say that aren't going to make every

00:39:46.980 --> 00:39:49.300
the room mad? Nobody's going to be on edge. Like,

00:39:49.500 --> 00:39:51.840
oh, I'm super biased. She just said I'm biased.

00:39:52.909 --> 00:39:54.650
Yeah, maybe don't lead with, hey, you're being

00:39:54.650 --> 00:39:56.630
biased. You're being super biased right now,

00:39:56.710 --> 00:39:59.329
by the way. Yeah. Maybe don't lead with that.

00:39:59.630 --> 00:40:02.130
Maybe I save that for later. But yeah, it's to

00:40:02.130 --> 00:40:04.829
not make someone defensive. But I love that swapping

00:40:04.829 --> 00:40:06.929
the competition for the collaboration, because

00:40:06.929 --> 00:40:09.030
that's the part that we're missing. That is the

00:40:09.030 --> 00:40:11.190
key right there, is being collaborative. And

00:40:11.190 --> 00:40:12.650
that goes back to the boys club. They're collaborative.

00:40:12.929 --> 00:40:15.769
Right? Like they pat each other on the ass and

00:40:15.769 --> 00:40:18.030
say good job and are supportive. Like we need

00:40:18.030 --> 00:40:20.989
to have that collaboration. And sometimes we

00:40:20.989 --> 00:40:23.030
have to be more intentional about it. So it's

00:40:23.030 --> 00:40:24.690
becoming intentional and thinking about it. And

00:40:24.690 --> 00:40:26.329
eventually it'll become natural, right? Like

00:40:26.329 --> 00:40:28.090
you're not gonna have to give it so much thought,

00:40:28.570 --> 00:40:30.630
but it's that initial till that kind of becomes

00:40:30.630 --> 00:40:33.969
the routine of how you perform or how you go

00:40:33.969 --> 00:40:36.849
about your job. It's just getting those reps

00:40:36.849 --> 00:40:38.610
in and being intentional about it. But I love

00:40:38.610 --> 00:40:42.079
that the collaboration over competition is. is

00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:44.539
key. That's so good. Well, and they talk about,

00:40:44.539 --> 00:40:46.320
you know, there's a lot of talk about the scarcity

00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.860
mindset, right? When there's been one woman in

00:40:48.860 --> 00:40:51.039
a group, you know, a leadership group that it's

00:40:51.039 --> 00:40:53.559
like, oh, well, if I'm going to get there, I

00:40:53.559 --> 00:40:55.900
got to take her spot. Right. So somehow I have

00:40:55.900 --> 00:40:59.920
to beat her and compete with her and cut her

00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:03.780
down so that I can be perceived as better versus,

00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:06.940
well, actually, no, I want to – her being at

00:41:06.940 --> 00:41:09.079
that table is proof that I can get to the table.

00:41:09.079 --> 00:41:11.440
Right. And we need to pull up another chair.

00:41:12.699 --> 00:41:17.360
And she can hopefully help make room. Now, she

00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:20.539
might not, but let's hope that she would. And

00:41:20.539 --> 00:41:22.699
I think that's that notion of collaboration.

00:41:22.860 --> 00:41:26.099
We can all get there. Just because you have a

00:41:26.099 --> 00:41:27.980
successful podcast doesn't mean that nobody else

00:41:27.980 --> 00:41:30.199
can have a successful podcast. Right? Right.

00:41:30.420 --> 00:41:33.159
Exactly. Exactly. No, that's so true. No, that's

00:41:33.159 --> 00:41:35.380
awesome. So as I said, your book, I love that

00:41:35.380 --> 00:41:38.420
it has the takeaways and the recaps of that.

00:41:38.519 --> 00:41:40.500
So where can everyone find your book and when

00:41:40.500 --> 00:41:44.039
is it coming out? Oh, so it may be out already

00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:46.019
when your listeners hear this, but it comes out

00:41:46.019 --> 00:41:49.539
on September 14th. We're super excited and you

00:41:49.539 --> 00:41:52.159
can find it wherever you buy your books. Amazing.

00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:54.639
It's available everywhere. That's so exciting.

00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:56.380
Congratulations. Thanks. I will definitely link

00:41:56.380 --> 00:41:58.340
that in the show notes, but congratulations to

00:41:58.340 --> 00:42:01.059
you and Julia and thank you for being that positive

00:42:01.059 --> 00:42:03.500
voice and helping women know what happens after

00:42:03.500 --> 00:42:05.739
you break that glass ceiling. Thank you so much

00:42:05.739 --> 00:42:08.730
for being here. Thanks so much. What I appreciate

00:42:08.730 --> 00:42:11.190
about this conversation and Shannon's book is

00:42:11.190 --> 00:42:13.329
that it doesn't leave us with another list of

00:42:13.329 --> 00:42:16.650
ways women need to fix themselves. We still need

00:42:16.650 --> 00:42:18.929
to understand the workplace dynamics happening

00:42:18.929 --> 00:42:22.030
around us. We need to build strong relationships

00:42:22.030 --> 00:42:24.750
before we're in crisis. Pay attention when the

00:42:24.750 --> 00:42:27.449
story about us begins to change and document

00:42:27.449 --> 00:42:29.889
what's happening instead of assuming our hard

00:42:29.889 --> 00:42:32.889
work will speak for itself. Because unfortunately,

00:42:33.449 --> 00:42:36.329
sometimes it won't. And we also need to stop

00:42:36.329 --> 00:42:38.449
treating another woman's bad experience as something

00:42:38.449 --> 00:42:41.469
that could never happen to us. Supporting women

00:42:41.469 --> 00:42:43.889
cannot only be something we do when it feels

00:42:43.889 --> 00:42:46.769
comfortable or politically safe. You can learn

00:42:46.769 --> 00:42:49.369
more about Shannon and find Walking on Broken

00:42:49.369 --> 00:42:52.530
Glass wherever you buy books. And if this conversation

00:42:52.530 --> 00:42:54.309
made you think of another woman who needs to

00:42:54.309 --> 00:42:57.389
hear it, please send it her way. Thanks for listening.

00:42:57.670 --> 00:43:00.309
Until next time, stay loud and keep lifting.