Why Women Undermine Other Women at Work

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We talk a lot about the boys club. And yes, the

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boys club is real. But I have said many times

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on this podcast, the bigger problem may be that

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women haven't built a supportive community. And

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while we love to say women supporting women,

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many women have experienced something very different.

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Being excluded, undermined, talked about, having

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their credibility questioned, watching another

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woman intentionally make their job or their life

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more difficult. And we usually don't talk about

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it. Partly because we don't want to reinforce

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the stereotype that women are jealous or dramatic

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or we can't work together, but staying quiet

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does not make the problem go away. My guest today,

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Vanessa Vershaw, is an organizational psychologist,

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leadership expert, and the author of The Sisterhood

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Paradox. Her research explores why women undermine

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other women, what real workplace bullying looks

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like, why these experiences can be so damaging,

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and what it will take to create a different kind

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of sisterhood. This conversation is honest at

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times, it's uncomfortable, and it's exactly the

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conversation we need to be having. Building a

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stronger community does not mean pretending women

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always support one another. It means being willing

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to talk honestly about why we sometimes don't

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and choosing to do better. Welcome to Loud and

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Lifted. Vanessa, thank you so much for being

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here. Oh, it's an absolute pleasure, Betsy. I've

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been so excited to get on your podcast and have

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this conversation about such an important topic.

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Yes, and you, first of all, win the award of

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being the furthest away guests we've ever had

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on this podcast. You were literally around the

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globe. And despite the fact, everybody will know

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when you talk right where you're from, but despite

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the fact that you are around the globe from us.

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You have the same issues in Australia as we do

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in the United States and so much that you have

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written a book about it. And I love this. This

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talks to my core of what our podcast is about.

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So you call it the sisterhood paradox. So let's

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get into it. What is the sisterhood paradox?

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Yeah. So it's this notion, the paradox of female

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relationships and specifically focusing at work

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where You know, the expectation is that because

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we're female, we're sisters and we look after

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one another, you know, we help each other in

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the workplace, you know, because there are so

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few of us represented at the top and it's quite

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hard to get there. But no, there is this huge

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piece of work and research and statistics that

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actually showcase something very alarming and

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that is that of all the bullying cases. 80 %

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of a bullying at work incidences of a woman are

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by another woman, not by a man. And so as an

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organizational psychologist and social scientist,

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I decided to go a little bit deeper into understanding

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what is going on in the world. It's not just

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in Australia and New Zealand, in America as well.

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What is going on and what do we do about it?

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And Is it actually affecting our ability as a

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society to progress in terms of gender equality?

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So these are some of the questions I went out

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to answer through writing this book. So when

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you started talking about this, were people surprised?

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Absolutely. Well, well, well, okay. I think the

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first response was absolutely because that was

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PC. But when I actually broke through the surface

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and said, really? You've never had an experience

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like this? Nine out of ten of the women that

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I spoke to said, well, actually, let's meet one

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on one and I'll talk to you about it. And it

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was really, really powerful because I interviewed

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a lot of very powerful women. I mean, we had

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one Australia's foreign minister in there. And

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if you read the book, some very high profile

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women in Australia and indeed globally. And most

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of them, when they're in meeting with me, after

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about 20 minutes were just absolute puddles.

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They broke down. Showcasing the far -reaching

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impact of when women mistreat other women, it

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actually hurts us more. And so much so that many

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of these women are being treated for post -traumatic

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stress disorder as a result. So it's a huge impact.

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Why do you think we're afraid to talk about it?

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Well, there are a few reasons. I mean, I think

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one and the most obvious is that, you know, because

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we've got the huge gender equality abyss, let's

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just say women who talk about this stuff are

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seen as creating an even bigger divide and not

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helping the sisterhood. That's kind of the one

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thing. The other thing is that there are some

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women who haven't been affected by it and so

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therefore it must not happen. you know it's I

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call it the pink elephant right it's it didn't

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happen to me therefore it's not happening so

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that's the other thing and I think the third

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thing is it can be a career delimiter right I

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mean as a female if you start talking about this

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in the workplace it's not very kosher we've got

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typically reporting into male leaders and they

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just see us as involving in bitch slapping behavior

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complaining and being all there's that woman

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there she is being emotional there's nothing

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to it it's absolute rubbish and in fact that's

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not the case it's actually quite prolific happens

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frequently and definitely Australia and New Zealand

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are leading the charge Not necessarily from a

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female at work bullying perspective, because

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we don't have enough stats to back that up. Actually,

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it's more in your country. The Institute of Bullying

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in the US has the stats on that. But we are definitely

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leading the charge in terms of bullying in the

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playground. And we've had quite a number of incidences

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in Australia where little girls have been bullied

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by other girls at school and leading to disastrous

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consequences. I do believe as a psychologist

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if we look at cause and effect, it's starting

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early and it's being dragged into the workplace

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because we're not effectively neutralizing it

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when it happens at a much younger age and so

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it's just getting pulled in. And that's a very

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simplistic view. I mean there are a few reasons

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why it happens. The other thing is when we go

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into organisational life, you know, cultures

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are still dominated by men and so you know, naturally

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we're going to try and survive in cultures where

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we aren't the dominant species. And a lot of

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women that I've spoken to, some of them have

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ended up actually being the bullies without realising

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it, which is really interesting. Yes, it's not

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always obvious. Either the act of being bullied

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by a woman because it's indirect and perhaps

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we'll get into that, or identifying that actually

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you're a bully. Yes, let's talk about that. Yeah,

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let's talk about that. What does that look like?

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What does that bully, aggressive behavior look

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like just in case? Well, let's just level set

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just so everybody understands what this actually

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translates to. Yeah. So look, the most traditional

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form with women is indirect. So we tend to play

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quite dirty. as women, we do, we play it quite

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dirty. So some of the tactics are quite indirect.

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So they might be things like gaslighting the

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woman or white hunting or spreading rumors about

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promiscuity. That's a big one. It's called slut

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shaming, actually. Sorry for your listeners.

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No, love it. I mean, I don't love it, but yes,

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call it what it is. we actually reduce the value

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of the violence we say in psychology of that

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woman in the workplace by saying she got the

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job because she slept with so -and -so. Oh, that's

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funny. That was my post on Instagram last week

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was about that somebody started a rumor that

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I became the CEO of my past company because I

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slept with the founder. And people literally

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were texting me, my friends are like, is this

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true? Did you just make this up? I'm like, No,

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I did not make this up. I would never make this

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up. But that was their way of trying to ruin

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my credibility within a company. Absolutely.

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And we go low and we go dirty, right? Right.

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And the other one is fat shaming. That's actually

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on the wire. So fat shaming is a big one in the

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workplace. But unfortunately, bullying tactics

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have become quite sophisticated as well. So with

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the advent of technology and cyber, of course,

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we've got trolling. We've now got mobbing. So,

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mobbing is where a woman will recruit other members

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of her organization to go and target and bully

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an individual, another woman, but they're like

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Teflon, so they send other people to go and do

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dirty work and they walk away. And another one

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that happened recently, and I talked about it

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in my book, I was sitting at a golf... course

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with a group of guys that I've been working with.

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And one of them was telling me about the organization

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that he works in, where the managing director

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asked his female office manager to recruit for

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a new PA for the firm. It was an engineering

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firm. It is an engineering firm. And he said,

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but here's what I want you to do. I want you

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to run it like a hung game scenario. where you

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put the women through the most heinous trials

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and tribulations, where you try to break them,

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so that only the woman that survives gets the

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job. What? And yeah, it's all in my book. And

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the office manager, a female, did it. Oh my gosh.

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Honestly, Betsy, I don't know what to do with

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that one. Right. Right? But this is... what's

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happening. And of course the other issue is,

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and I'll probably get voted off the island, a

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lot of these women led organisations that are

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big in name and very high society and high propriety

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are often run by women who are taking other women

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down. And I've got countless examples, as I said,

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of very high profile women here in Australia

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and beyond who won't join these organisations.

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even though they know it's career suicide, because

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you've got to be part of it, right? Because it's

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run by these Miranda type characters, you know,

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thick devil wears Prada. So it is extremely common.

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And the other side to this is, as part of my

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research, I interviewed men and I asked them,

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what do you think about all of this? You know,

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very high up in organizations as well, because

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I tend to work with more men than women in my

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line of work. And there were a couple of responses.

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One was, oh, that's not really happening, is

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it? So that was just, you know, honestly, don't

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get me started on that one. I just felt like

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clobbering them. And then the second one said,

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oh, I actually like it when that happens because...

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Stuff it. Yeah. And particularly, I like it when

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they do that because with all these women getting

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jobs that they don't really deserve to fit a

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quota, it means that I've... I can actually get

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a Guernsey now and they can't use the token female

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card. So when women fight and tear each other

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down, it's really good for my career. I say,

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see, they shouldn't be in leadership roles. So,

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you know, yeah. So, you know, this is all happening.

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It's prolific. Nobody really talks about it all

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that much, although it has become a little more

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frequent. But part of the reason why I wrote

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the book is personal. You know, not only my own

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experiences being bullied for many, many years

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and throughout my career, I was a very young

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executive, blah, blah, blah. But I had two of

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my clients take their own lives as a result of

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being bullied by other women. And when I found

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out that I was pregnant with a little girl, I

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just said, you know what, enough. enough, I've

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got to write the guidebook for her to navigate

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this crazy world of work that we're in. And so

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I've dedicated the book to my daughter and to

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all our daughters to say, Hey, I know you might

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not want to hear this, but should I go, here

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is my legacy. And this is what I want you to

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know. And in the book, it's full of how do you

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actually rise above it? How do you deal with

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it? you know, how do you get through it? How

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do you recognize it even? Something that's this,

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you know, this pink elephant that is so invisible

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because of the way it's played these days that

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often we don't even know it's happening. And

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if we do, we're discounted, you know. And so

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that's why I wrote the book. But I will tell

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you a very inspiring experience. As a result

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of writing the book, I was asked to speak at

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the World Women Foundation as part of the World

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Economic Forum in Davos in January in Switzerland.

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And I was asked to talk about, uh, represent

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Australia on advancing gender equality. And look,

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I was absolutely terrified because we're not

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doing well, right? So I was thinking, oh my,

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oh my Lord. Livestream to millions around the

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world. We've got a full packed room, standing

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room only. I'm competing with Donald Trump and

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Zuckerberg. There's little old me on the stage

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with all these diplomats and I'm thinking, holy

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moly, I've got nothing good to say. How do I

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talk about this? And the moderator, who's a bit

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cheeky, Dr. Sandy Chong, decides that she's gonna

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tell them I'm writing this. I'm going to get

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voted off this stage. I'm going to get the boos

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and the hisses. And she says, as she said to

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Sandy Chong with the UAE, she says, so Vanessa,

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you can actually look at this. I understand you're

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writing a book on women, female aggression at

00:14:29.360 --> 00:14:32.419
work. Do you want to tell us about that? And

00:14:32.419 --> 00:14:36.059
after I'd spoken to the crowd and my knees are

00:14:36.059 --> 00:14:39.340
knocking, not really, but I was petrified. My

00:14:39.340 --> 00:14:41.659
best friend is in the front door going, oh my

00:14:41.659 --> 00:14:43.600
God, because she knew I hadn't prepared for it.

00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:48.679
My best friend, Sarah. Oh my God. And what happened?

00:14:49.940 --> 00:14:54.179
They stood up and they just started crying. And

00:14:54.179 --> 00:14:59.379
they said, oh my God, someone is talking about

00:14:59.379 --> 00:15:06.419
this. Thank you. It was. Just incredible the

00:15:06.419 --> 00:15:09.279
lift talk about the lift effect of women supporting

00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:11.000
women in the room and there were many in there

00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:15.200
as well some great some crazy dudes But it was

00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:18.720
extraordinary response and so I think at those

00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:22.679
levels We understand world leaders understand.

00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:25.940
We need to be thinking about this But you know,

00:15:26.019 --> 00:15:28.200
that's why what you're doing today is so important

00:15:28.200 --> 00:15:30.559
Betsy because you're raising the conversation

00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:33.940
and consciousness around those invisible threats,

00:15:34.340 --> 00:15:37.600
those silent, lesser known things that are happening

00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:41.940
that can actually affect our ability for all

00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:44.480
of us to thrive, you know, in life and at work.

00:15:45.120 --> 00:15:48.019
And the book is about allyship, actually. It's

00:15:48.019 --> 00:15:51.259
about what if we didn't do this? And we actually

00:15:51.259 --> 00:15:53.299
tried something else. We tried collaboration

00:15:53.299 --> 00:15:55.960
over competition. We actually recognized that

00:15:55.960 --> 00:15:59.889
by behaving in this way, We're actually punching

00:15:59.889 --> 00:16:07.190
ourselves in the face Don't you think like we're

00:16:07.190 --> 00:16:09.909
actually hurting ourselves like some form of

00:16:09.909 --> 00:16:15.289
self torture, you know and and Destruction and

00:16:15.289 --> 00:16:20.210
we don't even realize it. So I gosh I agree with

00:16:20.210 --> 00:16:22.110
everything that you said and especially, you

00:16:22.110 --> 00:16:24.029
know, you're right, experiencing so much of that

00:16:24.029 --> 00:16:26.029
firsthand through my career. Nobody talking about

00:16:26.029 --> 00:16:28.370
it, right? We get so fixated on the boys club

00:16:28.370 --> 00:16:30.610
and that's what we want to blame is the men.

00:16:31.309 --> 00:16:33.470
And as I always say, the boys club exists. Great.

00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:36.379
I'm glad that they support each other. The problem

00:16:36.379 --> 00:16:39.379
is that we as women don't have a club or community

00:16:39.379 --> 00:16:41.860
or anything where we're supportive. And that's

00:16:41.860 --> 00:16:44.440
the imbalance. And again, I have two teen daughters,

00:16:44.659 --> 00:16:48.299
too. So that was part of my why of even talking

00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:50.240
about it. And now they're 18 and 15. They're

00:16:50.240 --> 00:16:53.059
very aware. They'll call people out. And again,

00:16:53.059 --> 00:16:55.039
they're not perfect. I'm not claiming that. But

00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:58.100
they're just aware of the way girls at their

00:16:58.100 --> 00:17:00.659
ages treat each other or what they see on a TV

00:17:00.659 --> 00:17:04.559
show or whatever. with being aware of this is

00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:07.859
happening and then having the opportunities to

00:17:07.859 --> 00:17:10.740
be able to fix it, support it, not do it to other

00:17:10.740 --> 00:17:13.859
people, right? Be aware of that. I guess, why

00:17:13.859 --> 00:17:16.779
does this happen when you research so much with

00:17:16.779 --> 00:17:18.859
women? Like, what's the cause or the drive of

00:17:18.859 --> 00:17:21.460
these behaviors? I mean, there's a couple of

00:17:21.460 --> 00:17:27.480
things. The most simply put is that we are animals,

00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:30.180
right? And at the end of the day, when we're

00:17:30.180 --> 00:17:33.710
in cultures and environments, where, you know,

00:17:33.730 --> 00:17:36.029
there's a struggle for resources, there's limited

00:17:36.029 --> 00:17:38.809
resources, it's, you know, survival of the fittest.

00:17:39.329 --> 00:17:41.849
You know, survival instinct kicks in sometimes

00:17:41.849 --> 00:17:45.809
without us even realising, you know, and does

00:17:45.809 --> 00:17:49.549
that mean, much like Cesar Milan, the dog whisperer

00:17:49.549 --> 00:17:51.390
talks about, you know, well, this is just, you

00:17:51.390 --> 00:17:54.670
know, bitch behaviour, and if you look at his

00:17:54.670 --> 00:17:57.150
theory, it would suggest that we don't have a

00:17:57.150 --> 00:18:01.009
choice. Well, we're not animals, we're not chimps,

00:18:01.230 --> 00:18:05.210
we're not dogs. So I would suggest that the intelligence

00:18:05.210 --> 00:18:07.890
that we've been given from God or whoever, supreme

00:18:07.890 --> 00:18:11.710
creator, means that we can be smarter, we can

00:18:11.710 --> 00:18:14.569
be more clever, and we do have a choice. But

00:18:14.569 --> 00:18:16.849
it starts with the awareness to making choices

00:18:16.849 --> 00:18:18.769
about how we're gonna behave. Now, I'm gonna

00:18:18.769 --> 00:18:21.289
put myself on the line and say, when I started

00:18:21.289 --> 00:18:25.390
researching this and also through my own... awful

00:18:25.390 --> 00:18:28.329
experiences, you know, at school and then later

00:18:28.329 --> 00:18:31.910
in the workplace. Have I had moments where I've

00:18:31.910 --> 00:18:35.789
been an absolute bitch? Absolutely. I'm not guilt

00:18:35.789 --> 00:18:39.049
free. However, there is a difference between

00:18:39.049 --> 00:18:43.650
being a bitch and being a bully. This book is

00:18:43.650 --> 00:18:46.349
about bullying. So what is bullying? and what

00:18:46.349 --> 00:18:48.130
is the difference? Because we tend to just throw

00:18:48.130 --> 00:18:50.230
around the world bullying, like garden variety.

00:18:50.769 --> 00:18:53.990
Bullying is not if some woman eye rolls you once.

00:18:54.769 --> 00:18:57.450
Bullying is not if someone calls you a, you know,

00:18:57.529 --> 00:19:01.150
a hoe bag once. That's not bullying, okay? Bullying

00:19:01.150 --> 00:19:05.509
is repeated attempts to take you down. So it's

00:19:05.509 --> 00:19:09.970
the intent to maim and destroy on a repetitious

00:19:09.970 --> 00:19:13.009
basis. It's not just once, it's not just twice,

00:19:13.069 --> 00:19:17.119
it's continuous. and it's calculated, much like

00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:22.440
intent in any legal case for murder. Can you

00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:24.880
establish mens rea? Can you establish that there

00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.559
was intent to kill? It's the same thing with

00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:32.039
bullying. It's got to be repetitive. So I do

00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:35.099
think that we've got a problem with the term

00:19:35.099 --> 00:19:37.059
bullying. I think we've weaponized it in the

00:19:37.059 --> 00:19:40.099
workplace. I think it's overused. And so the

00:19:40.099 --> 00:19:42.200
power of it and really understanding what it

00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:45.529
is has been diluted. This book is really those

00:19:45.529 --> 00:19:48.930
women who try to take down other women. That's

00:19:48.930 --> 00:19:51.210
what I'm talking about, right? That's a great

00:19:51.210 --> 00:19:54.410
distinction. Yeah, I love that. And you're right.

00:19:54.569 --> 00:19:56.490
I think we're all guilty of being a bitch at

00:19:56.490 --> 00:19:58.750
times. I certainly could raise my hand on that.

00:19:58.769 --> 00:20:03.109
Who isn't, right? Yeah, the the intention and

00:20:03.109 --> 00:20:05.250
and being malicious about taking someone down

00:20:05.250 --> 00:20:07.289
is is very different and and you're right here

00:20:07.289 --> 00:20:09.029
in the states We have been throwing the word

00:20:09.029 --> 00:20:11.089
around bullying a lot and a lot of times it's

00:20:11.089 --> 00:20:13.069
in school and you know high school kids It's

00:20:13.069 --> 00:20:15.390
it's the younger kids that then when people use

00:20:15.390 --> 00:20:18.289
it in a workplace. I think you get that eye roll,

00:20:18.430 --> 00:20:19.930
right? Like, oh, bullying, you're just being

00:20:19.930 --> 00:20:22.690
dramatic. Like, it's just gotten this negative

00:20:22.690 --> 00:20:24.509
connotation, unfortunately, and it's, and it's

00:20:24.509 --> 00:20:26.549
so true. But I love that definition, because

00:20:26.549 --> 00:20:28.329
it goes back to like, it's being intentional,

00:20:28.349 --> 00:20:30.609
trying to hurt someone and take someone down.

00:20:30.609 --> 00:20:33.170
And that's a great distinction. Very much so.

00:20:33.170 --> 00:20:34.750
And it's interesting on that note, you know,

00:20:34.750 --> 00:20:37.329
you talked about boys clubs and girls clubs or

00:20:37.329 --> 00:20:39.230
women's clubs. So a couple of things, one of

00:20:39.230 --> 00:20:41.950
the tactics for women who are bullies is social

00:20:41.950 --> 00:20:46.789
ostracism. So exclusion. Exclusion is one of

00:20:46.789 --> 00:20:50.710
the most powerful and well -used forms of bullying

00:20:50.710 --> 00:20:53.269
by women, which is, again, why it's so hard to

00:20:53.269 --> 00:20:56.289
see, because it could be even, you know, using

00:20:56.289 --> 00:20:59.289
the dreaded VCC function on an email, which is

00:20:59.289 --> 00:21:01.650
probably, right? That's bullying. That can be

00:21:01.650 --> 00:21:04.089
bullying, repeated, where you just don't include

00:21:04.089 --> 00:21:06.589
someone. They're left out of the loop continuously

00:21:06.589 --> 00:21:08.920
and intentionally. The other thing around boys

00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:11.400
and women's clubs is the problem that you've

00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:13.460
got is a couple of things. One, a lot of women's

00:21:13.460 --> 00:21:17.660
clubs have become actual, you know, hotbeds for

00:21:17.660 --> 00:21:20.579
bullying. So that's what we talked about before.

00:21:22.000 --> 00:21:24.920
The other issue we've got is that because a lot

00:21:24.920 --> 00:21:27.460
of women are so sick of these boys clubs, they

00:21:27.460 --> 00:21:30.980
choose to go to these women only things, which

00:21:30.980 --> 00:21:34.019
means we are not represented where we need to

00:21:34.019 --> 00:21:37.339
be. And I would say to any of your audience,

00:21:37.700 --> 00:21:41.799
don't do it. Don't opt out of going to networking

00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.980
events and just go to check events. You are actually

00:21:45.980 --> 00:21:50.859
doing your career a disservice. You must go to

00:21:50.859 --> 00:21:53.519
both. One is for moral support. It's a different

00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.559
kind of support. The other is you must be visible.

00:21:57.420 --> 00:21:59.660
If you're an ambitious woman and you want to

00:21:59.660 --> 00:22:02.019
do well, you've got to be seen, you've got to

00:22:02.019 --> 00:22:05.039
be at these things, you know. I find with my

00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:07.880
line of work, I do some crazy stuff. I really

00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:10.119
push myself out there. So I will go to events

00:22:10.119 --> 00:22:14.440
where I know no women will be. The most random,

00:22:15.059 --> 00:22:18.259
like last week I went to Innovation in Shark

00:22:18.259 --> 00:22:21.809
Nets, you know, swimming in the ocean. And I

00:22:21.809 --> 00:22:24.950
met all these crazy male innovators about shark

00:22:24.950 --> 00:22:27.890
neck technology. I know nothing about it, but

00:22:27.890 --> 00:22:30.170
you know what? For me, it's part of building

00:22:30.170 --> 00:22:34.710
those skills as well. Being in those environments,

00:22:34.769 --> 00:22:37.390
which are male dominated, where I have got no

00:22:37.390 --> 00:22:41.869
right to be. And yes, I was the only woman in

00:22:41.869 --> 00:22:47.390
the room, Betsy. It was awesome. All of the guys

00:22:47.390 --> 00:22:51.839
coming after me, talking to me. You feel welcome.

00:22:52.779 --> 00:22:55.619
I'm working with this institute, this Ocean's

00:22:55.619 --> 00:22:59.259
Place as a result. Absolutely fantastic. So we

00:22:59.259 --> 00:23:02.640
have to take a few risks. And that means not

00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:06.380
just going back to the chicks, because that's

00:23:06.380 --> 00:23:09.579
not going to help us either. We can't go the

00:23:09.579 --> 00:23:12.920
other way. We have to be in both places. And

00:23:12.920 --> 00:23:15.180
that's really important. But make sure if we

00:23:15.180 --> 00:23:17.299
are going to the chick events or the women's

00:23:17.299 --> 00:23:20.329
only things, that the sisters that are running

00:23:20.329 --> 00:23:23.589
those events actually stand for what you believe

00:23:23.589 --> 00:23:27.869
in. And they're not part of that, you know, the

00:23:27.869 --> 00:23:30.609
other side because they will take you down. Make

00:23:30.609 --> 00:23:33.390
no mistake about it. And I see it all the time.

00:23:33.609 --> 00:23:35.890
And you're so right. Those are the worst ones

00:23:35.890 --> 00:23:38.809
because on the surface you think they are women

00:23:38.809 --> 00:23:41.069
supporting women and they're there and this is

00:23:41.069 --> 00:23:42.950
a group. And I mean, I've been part of them,

00:23:42.950 --> 00:23:45.049
right? And all this, it's our tribe and we're

00:23:45.049 --> 00:23:47.529
so supportive. And all of a sudden you're like,

00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:49.559
Holy cow, what just happened? Like the bottom

00:23:49.559 --> 00:23:51.759
just falls out because you are discluded, you're

00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:53.539
bullied, and you're like, shit, I thought this

00:23:53.539 --> 00:23:56.240
was a tribe, right? Like what's going on? And

00:23:56.240 --> 00:23:58.579
it's some of those women or those groups that

00:23:58.579 --> 00:24:02.000
do, they surprise you that they have this front,

00:24:02.119 --> 00:24:04.019
that they're, you know, this great supportive

00:24:04.019 --> 00:24:06.819
group. So if a woman's listening to this and

00:24:06.819 --> 00:24:09.559
they're like, oh shit, I am definitely being

00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:11.240
bullied, whether it's at work or in one of these

00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:13.500
groups, like how do we handle this when it's

00:24:13.500 --> 00:24:15.380
happening to us? It's so hard, right? When we're

00:24:15.380 --> 00:24:18.660
so caught up in it. Yeah, look, there's a there's

00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:20.500
a lot of different steps. The first thing I'd

00:24:20.500 --> 00:24:24.119
say is are you actually being bullied? You know,

00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:28.059
like what is going on and I think that would

00:24:28.059 --> 00:24:30.299
be the first place I would go is try to understand

00:24:30.299 --> 00:24:33.140
like what's this? What is this bullying situation

00:24:33.140 --> 00:24:36.839
that I'm having and I'd go and seek counsel on

00:24:36.839 --> 00:24:39.859
that to just either speak to somebody who you

00:24:39.859 --> 00:24:42.059
can trust that's quite well versed in these things

00:24:42.059 --> 00:24:46.819
or you could go and see even somebody in HR if

00:24:46.819 --> 00:24:49.720
you trust them, you know, to find out whether

00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:53.079
it really is that kind of a scenario, because

00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:57.000
I think that's the first thing. And then really

00:24:57.000 --> 00:25:00.680
it depends on who it is as well, you know, if

00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:03.200
it's a superior it's going to be very hard to

00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:06.819
address, okay, and if the culture of your organization

00:25:06.819 --> 00:25:11.339
doesn't support action around these things, I'm

00:25:11.339 --> 00:25:13.079
going to be honest with you, there's not really

00:25:13.079 --> 00:25:16.500
that much you can do. You know, you kind of have

00:25:16.500 --> 00:25:19.660
to go up. You've got to move out. And what I'd

00:25:19.660 --> 00:25:22.660
say is you've got to move out before your confidence

00:25:22.660 --> 00:25:26.240
is so low that you actually leave the organization

00:25:26.240 --> 00:25:28.559
in a puddle and you don't have strength to fight

00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:30.700
or look for another opportunity. The problem

00:25:30.700 --> 00:25:35.380
with women is we soldier on. And we stay and

00:25:35.380 --> 00:25:38.539
we say, it's not that bad. We minimize it. I've

00:25:38.539 --> 00:25:42.099
been through worse. got this. The stats also

00:25:42.099 --> 00:25:44.799
show something interesting globally that women

00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:48.019
don't tend to use the EAP service, the Employment

00:25:48.019 --> 00:25:51.759
Assistance Program. They don't seek out support

00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:55.700
at work at all because they're worried about

00:25:55.700 --> 00:25:58.660
how it looks and we don't get help either. So

00:25:58.660 --> 00:26:02.000
you can see where I'm going with, you know, if

00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:04.240
something's really going on, you need to get

00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:07.480
support before it ruins your prospects for the

00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:10.819
next role. Because that's what we tend to do

00:26:10.819 --> 00:26:13.119
and I will I will often meet up with women on

00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:15.700
that I'll end up coaching them and they're absolute

00:26:15.700 --> 00:26:19.740
post -traumatic stress situation and They're

00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:22.099
they're just a shadow of their former selves

00:26:22.099 --> 00:26:24.799
How can I possibly coach them to go back out

00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:26.180
in the world when they're like that? It's gonna

00:26:26.180 --> 00:26:29.900
take me six months So don't let it get there.

00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:32.759
Yeah figure out what you're dealing with Get

00:26:32.759 --> 00:26:35.900
some advice get some legal counsel if you need

00:26:35.900 --> 00:26:40.039
to and then make a decision If you are dreading

00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:42.799
going to work every day and it's been going on

00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:46.660
for a while, then it's probably time to rethink

00:26:46.660 --> 00:26:48.880
whether you want to be part of that organization

00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:52.579
or not, and whether there are other prospects.

00:26:52.619 --> 00:26:54.480
Now, I understand what I'm saying. For some women,

00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:57.299
that's really tricky too, because jobs are hard

00:26:57.299 --> 00:27:01.079
to find, finding the right job. But at least

00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:03.460
you've got to start preparing for that next one.

00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:06.019
And that's what I always say, start looking.

00:27:06.980 --> 00:27:10.940
start looking, get on the horse and really reframe

00:27:10.940 --> 00:27:13.119
the work experience that you're having as, I'm

00:27:13.119 --> 00:27:15.839
just here until I find my next one. I'm actively

00:27:15.839 --> 00:27:19.119
seeking help. I'm making it work for me for now.

00:27:19.339 --> 00:27:21.740
And I'm just going to, I know this person's doing

00:27:21.740 --> 00:27:23.160
what they're doing, but I'm just going to deal

00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:25.480
with it until I get out, but have an exit strategy.

00:27:25.539 --> 00:27:27.440
That's what I would say, have an exit strategy.

00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:30.359
The other thing of course, is if you can speak

00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:34.660
to the person, then that would be the best situation.

00:27:34.890 --> 00:27:37.329
But you have to determine whether that person's

00:27:37.329 --> 00:27:39.190
safe or not. Because again, if they're in a power

00:27:39.190 --> 00:27:42.250
position and it's a bully in a power position,

00:27:43.450 --> 00:27:45.630
you're going to end up probably being the one

00:27:45.630 --> 00:27:50.349
that takes it. That's the reality because, and

00:27:50.349 --> 00:27:55.089
here's another thing, real female bullies usually

00:27:55.089 --> 00:27:59.829
have some form of psychopathology. Give us a

00:27:59.829 --> 00:28:02.470
little bit more about that. So you may have heard

00:28:02.470 --> 00:28:08.089
of narcissism, things like this, you know, bipolar

00:28:08.089 --> 00:28:12.410
personality disorders, you know, all histrionic

00:28:12.410 --> 00:28:15.890
personality disorders, sociopathology, you know,

00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:19.349
all these different beautiful minglings of ingredients

00:28:19.349 --> 00:28:22.730
that create someone whose neurochemistry is off.

00:28:22.950 --> 00:28:26.210
And that's typically what we see a very high

00:28:26.210 --> 00:28:30.869
proportion of true female bullies are actually

00:28:30.869 --> 00:28:34.230
unwell. That unfortunately makes sense. You know,

00:28:34.309 --> 00:28:35.950
so what are you going to do? Are you going to

00:28:35.950 --> 00:28:38.089
try and reason with someone like that? Do you,

00:28:38.190 --> 00:28:43.829
would you reason with Dexter? No. I mean, you

00:28:43.829 --> 00:28:47.630
know, like, but we do, we do Betsy as well. Oh,

00:28:48.349 --> 00:28:52.569
she's not that bad. She's just having a bad day.

00:28:52.789 --> 00:28:56.109
Well, you know what? Have you documented what's

00:28:56.109 --> 00:28:59.170
happened? Have you figured out? Whether you're

00:28:59.170 --> 00:29:00.890
being bullied, have you actually written all

00:29:00.890 --> 00:29:02.910
the things that have happened? Have you built

00:29:02.910 --> 00:29:05.609
a bit of a case to figure out what's happening?

00:29:05.869 --> 00:29:08.690
Have you gone and got some external advice to

00:29:08.690 --> 00:29:11.769
figure out the true nature or extended this scenario?

00:29:11.910 --> 00:29:14.769
Because you do need an objective viewpoint. And

00:29:14.769 --> 00:29:17.029
on the basis of all that homework, do you still

00:29:17.029 --> 00:29:20.430
want to be there? You know, can you really turn

00:29:20.430 --> 00:29:25.839
around Dexter? Probably not. Probably not. And

00:29:25.839 --> 00:29:28.099
you're right. And that's the harsh reality is

00:29:28.099 --> 00:29:30.480
it's not going to change. And a lot of times

00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:32.619
this is happening from women in leadership to

00:29:32.619 --> 00:29:34.720
someone at a lower position. And that's an uphill

00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.599
battle that you're going to be. having to prove

00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:39.440
your point and sound like you're whining. If

00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:41.200
you didn't get a promotion, it's because of that.

00:29:41.259 --> 00:29:44.299
You know, it's just a very hard situation to

00:29:44.299 --> 00:29:46.980
get out of professionally. And because again,

00:29:47.160 --> 00:29:49.319
a lot of other bosses aren't going to want to

00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:50.640
take that on or they're going to be like, oh,

00:29:50.660 --> 00:29:52.579
you're being a baby, you're being whatever. Like

00:29:52.579 --> 00:29:56.039
it's just, it's a very hard thing to fight. Yeah.

00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:58.000
And I love that we're keeping it real here because

00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:00.579
I could feed your audience lines and tell you

00:30:00.579 --> 00:30:03.440
all this, give you all this Mary Poppins. But

00:30:03.440 --> 00:30:05.900
the reality is quite different. You know, you

00:30:05.900 --> 00:30:07.720
have to find out what's really going on. You

00:30:07.720 --> 00:30:10.980
have to get external advice. Sometimes though,

00:30:11.420 --> 00:30:14.180
as to what we've been talking about, we can overreact

00:30:14.180 --> 00:30:16.980
to scenarios. That's why I said, are you really

00:30:16.980 --> 00:30:22.000
being bullied? Or are you, you know, is someone

00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:25.440
just being a bit of a nasty pasty in the workplace?

00:30:25.700 --> 00:30:27.859
You know, and be really clear on it. And if it's

00:30:27.859 --> 00:30:30.220
a nasty pasty, then that's a whole other strategy,

00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:33.009
isn't it? And you can look up, I've done quite

00:30:33.009 --> 00:30:36.670
a few TV interviews on toxic relationships at

00:30:36.670 --> 00:30:40.289
work and women and stuff. But that's a different

00:30:40.289 --> 00:30:43.789
strategy, isn't it? Which is not what we're talking

00:30:43.789 --> 00:30:45.970
about tonight. But figure out what it is first.

00:30:46.029 --> 00:30:49.910
That's kind of what I'm saying. And if it is

00:30:49.910 --> 00:30:51.950
true bullying, then the likelihood of you turning

00:30:51.950 --> 00:30:55.710
it around is quite slim. However, if it is simply

00:30:55.710 --> 00:30:59.190
a woman behaving badly, you can probably do something

00:30:59.190 --> 00:31:02.180
about it. So just figure out which one it is.

00:31:02.519 --> 00:31:05.319
Makes sense. So what if this is with friends

00:31:05.319 --> 00:31:07.980
or somebody in our circle? How do we handle that

00:31:07.980 --> 00:31:10.420
if we have somebody that we thought we were friends

00:31:10.420 --> 00:31:14.299
with that has that kind of behavior? Well, you

00:31:14.299 --> 00:31:17.099
know, I'm always a big believer in backing yourself.

00:31:17.259 --> 00:31:20.279
I don't believe in ghosting. I think, you know,

00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:22.660
I have these psychologist friends and I'm a corporate,

00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.319
not a therapist, but it's interesting. I've spoken

00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:28.119
to a lot of them and they say, oh, we'll just

00:31:28.119 --> 00:31:30.440
walk away, cut the relationship off and don't

00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:32.980
ever talk to them again. And ghosting is actually

00:31:32.980 --> 00:31:36.720
also a form of bullying. Okay. Because think

00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:39.039
about what you're doing. What are you actually

00:31:39.039 --> 00:31:44.460
doing? It's quite a toxic, toxic way of not handling

00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:47.000
a situation maturely, particularly in someone

00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:49.839
you've been friends with. If you've decided that

00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:52.319
this person fills you with dread and they are

00:31:52.319 --> 00:31:54.420
not behaving in a way that is aligned with your

00:31:54.420 --> 00:31:57.400
values, then have a conversation with them. Let

00:31:57.400 --> 00:32:01.279
them know, hey, Mary, here's how I've been feeling.

00:32:01.640 --> 00:32:03.799
I want to understand what's going on for you

00:32:03.799 --> 00:32:07.200
and have the courageous conversation. And if

00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:09.339
you don't get the answer that suits you, make

00:32:09.339 --> 00:32:11.480
the decision to leave the friendship, but let

00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:14.319
her know. Do the right thing. Say, hey, Mary.

00:32:14.730 --> 00:32:17.329
I don't feel that you and I are aligned anymore.

00:32:17.809 --> 00:32:19.589
I've loved the season of our friendship, but

00:32:19.589 --> 00:32:21.410
it's gone to a place that I'm not comfortable

00:32:21.410 --> 00:32:24.529
with anymore. You know, so I wish you all the

00:32:24.529 --> 00:32:27.410
best, but I won't be able to continue this friendship

00:32:27.410 --> 00:32:30.529
the way it is right now. So, you know, good luck.

00:32:30.930 --> 00:32:34.289
Have the conversation, you know, leave the behavior

00:32:34.289 --> 00:32:37.509
you want to see. But we don't do that either.

00:32:37.829 --> 00:32:42.250
We just walk. And most people, even in organizational

00:32:42.250 --> 00:32:45.150
life, they will exit an organization rather than

00:32:45.150 --> 00:32:49.089
have a tough conversation with someone. But let's

00:32:49.089 --> 00:32:51.029
try something different. Let's be brave where

00:32:51.029 --> 00:32:53.269
we can. Let's try and have those conversations.

00:32:54.089 --> 00:32:58.269
Not with an expectation of an outcome, but see

00:32:58.269 --> 00:33:01.470
where it leads. Be curious, be kind, have the

00:33:01.470 --> 00:33:04.589
conversation. It could turn the friendship around.

00:33:04.690 --> 00:33:08.069
It could not. But at least do the right thing.

00:33:08.130 --> 00:33:10.009
You know, you're responsible for the way you

00:33:10.009 --> 00:33:12.529
behave. And so make sure it's in a way that you

00:33:12.529 --> 00:33:16.470
can live with. I love that so much. So what do

00:33:16.470 --> 00:33:19.170
you hope women take from The Sisterhood Paradox

00:33:19.170 --> 00:33:22.009
when they read this book? So I really would love

00:33:22.009 --> 00:33:26.869
women to understand, you know, how when we support

00:33:26.869 --> 00:33:29.750
one another, when we work together, when we lift

00:33:29.750 --> 00:33:33.130
each other up, we've got actually more chance

00:33:33.130 --> 00:33:37.460
of creating a world where everybody gets a Guernsey.

00:33:38.099 --> 00:33:40.700
And that's not happening right now. So let's

00:33:40.700 --> 00:33:43.000
stop complaining about the things that we can't

00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:45.900
control from a gender equality perspective and

00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:47.880
take a good look in the mirror and control what

00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:51.460
we can, which is ourselves. And that's why I

00:33:51.460 --> 00:33:53.940
think the book is so powerful because it's putting

00:33:53.940 --> 00:33:56.880
the power back into the hands of women saying,

00:33:57.339 --> 00:34:01.480
hey girl, what are you doing? Are you behaving

00:34:01.480 --> 00:34:04.980
in a way that is actually promoting women, setting

00:34:04.980 --> 00:34:07.339
a direction, leading the way with courage and

00:34:07.339 --> 00:34:10.360
confidence and creating workplaces where we all

00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:14.380
thrive? Or are you doing something else? And

00:34:14.380 --> 00:34:16.360
if you're doing something else, I'm not judging,

00:34:17.059 --> 00:34:20.320
make a different decision for tomorrow. Because

00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:23.619
when we come together truly and honestly and

00:34:23.619 --> 00:34:26.940
authentically, we can do anything. And I think

00:34:26.940 --> 00:34:30.380
about... this is a large last known if your audience

00:34:30.380 --> 00:34:32.860
don't aren't aware there's this extraordinary

00:34:32.860 --> 00:34:36.480
group of chimps called the bonobo chimps bonobo

00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:40.199
chimps are a chimp tribe the closest in dn80

00:34:40.199 --> 00:34:44.219
humans 98 .5 percent of their dna with humans

00:34:44.219 --> 00:34:52.000
who are run by a matriarchy so it's run by female

00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:56.300
chimps and instead of fighting they make love

00:34:56.300 --> 00:35:00.130
not war And so I leave you with that concept.

00:35:00.369 --> 00:35:02.730
I think what would happen if we made more love

00:35:02.730 --> 00:35:06.550
and not war with each other? What kind of place

00:35:06.550 --> 00:35:08.730
would the world be if we took a leaf out of the

00:35:08.730 --> 00:35:12.070
book of those gorgeous bonobos? Just a thought.

00:35:12.989 --> 00:35:14.929
Love that. That's so great. Vanessa, thank you

00:35:14.929 --> 00:35:16.989
so much for being here. Where can people connect

00:35:16.989 --> 00:35:19.309
with you? And we'll, of course, connect your

00:35:19.309 --> 00:35:21.429
book on our show notes, but where's the best

00:35:21.429 --> 00:35:24.130
place to reach out to you? Thank you. Look, you

00:35:24.130 --> 00:35:27.710
can reach me via my website, VanessaVirshaw .com,

00:35:28.010 --> 00:35:30.090
but you can also pick up your copy of the book

00:35:30.090 --> 00:35:33.090
from Amazon. It is available in America. It says

00:35:33.090 --> 00:35:35.010
that there's no stock, but there is. There's

00:35:35.010 --> 00:35:37.829
loads of it. Don't know why they do that. And

00:35:37.829 --> 00:35:40.510
in any good retailers or bookstores as well.

00:35:41.130 --> 00:35:43.530
So, but you know, all the information is on my

00:35:43.530 --> 00:35:46.210
website. So just reach out if you have any questions

00:35:46.210 --> 00:35:48.170
or you want to connect. I'm also on Instagram

00:35:48.170 --> 00:35:50.849
as well, although a bit more low key there. Nice.

00:35:50.949 --> 00:35:54.199
Thank you, Vanessa. Thanks so much, Bitsy. There's

00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:56.139
so much in this conversation, but one message

00:35:56.139 --> 00:35:58.659
really stayed with me. We cannot control every

00:35:58.659 --> 00:36:01.719
system, every workplace, or every person, but

00:36:01.719 --> 00:36:04.440
we can take a hard look at how we show up for

00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:07.760
other women. Are we opening doors, sharing opportunities,

00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:11.460
giving credit, including women in the room? Or

00:36:11.460 --> 00:36:14.059
are we competing, excluding, staying silent,

00:36:14.179 --> 00:36:16.559
or participating in behavior that makes it harder

00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:20.210
for another woman to succeed? And I also appreciated

00:36:20.210 --> 00:36:22.570
Vanessa's honesty that supporting women does

00:36:22.570 --> 00:36:25.630
not mean tolerating harmful behavior or pretending

00:36:25.630 --> 00:36:28.570
every woman is automatically a safe person simply

00:36:28.570 --> 00:36:32.150
because she's a woman. Real support requires

00:36:32.150 --> 00:36:35.469
awareness, courage, accountability, and sometimes

00:36:35.469 --> 00:36:38.550
hard conversations. The boys club may be real,

00:36:38.750 --> 00:36:41.630
but women have an opportunity and a responsibility

00:36:41.630 --> 00:36:44.969
to build something stronger of our own. You can

00:36:44.969 --> 00:36:47.230
learn more about Vanessa and find her book, The

00:36:47.230 --> 00:36:49.409
Sisterhood Paradox through the link in the show

00:36:49.409 --> 00:36:52.909
notes. And as always, lead louder, grow stronger,

00:36:53.150 --> 00:36:54.469
and don't do it alone.