How to Stop Micromanaging and Be a Better Boss with Lia Garvin

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We've talked a lot on this show about bad bosses.

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Apparently, a lot of you can relate. How to deal

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with them. How to survive a micromanager when

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it might even be time to leave. But today, we're

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flipping that conversation. Because what if you

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were listening and thinking, wait a minute, do

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I do that? Most of us don't set out to be a bad

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boss. We want things done well. We want to support

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our team. But somewhere along the way, being

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helpful can turn into being involved in absolutely

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everything. And suddenly, nobody can make a decision

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without us. My guest today is Leah Garvin. She's

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a team management expert who has led team operations

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at Google, Microsoft, and Apple. She also hosts

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the Managing Made Simple podcast and is the author

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of the new manager playbook. We're talking about

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three signs you might be micromanaging without

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even realizing it. Why your best employees asking

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for more responsibility is a moment you shouldn't

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brush off. and how to become a manager people

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actually want to work for. Whether you're new

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to managing or have been doing this for years,

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there's probably something in this conversation

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that will make you pause, and something you can

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use right away. Let's get into it. Welcome to

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Loud and Lifted. Leah, thank you so much for

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being here. So excited to be here with you. Yes,

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me too. We are about, I'd say, 40 guests into

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Loud and Lifted over the last year and a half.

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And some of our most popular topics of conversation

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on this podcast have been about bad bosses, right?

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And how to deal with toxic bosses and micromanagers.

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And we even did bad bosses. There's 13 archetypes.

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So we've all had a lot of conversation that clearly

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resonates with a lot of women, which is a shame,

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but also good if they can get some advice through

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the last year and a half. Today, we're going

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to switch that and instead of talking about how

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to deal with your bad boss, I'm sure there's

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been people sitting here listening to episodes

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of the past and be like, wait a minute. Does

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this sound like me? What do I do if they're talking

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about me and that paranoia may set in? Or maybe

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you're new to managing employees. So we're going

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to flip the script today and talk about the other

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side of how do we make sure that we are good

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managers and good bosses. And you're so passionate

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about this. You wrote an entire playbook about

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this, which I love so much. So let's kind of

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start at the beginning of why is this such an

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issue? Why is it so hard to have good managers?

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Yeah. I mean, I think first and foremost, it's

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because I think this data is 77 % of managers

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take on the role with no training or support.

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And so like, if we think about that... four out

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of five, right? You did really good as an individual

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contributor, or you've been on a team for a long

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time, or you start a business and you're like,

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okay, I gotta get some people to help me. And

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there's just like no training or no, you know,

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sure there's resources out there, but I think

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actually how do you become a good leader? How

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do you actually build that muscle is a whole

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different thing than, you know, just, you know,

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hearing about like what is a good leader from

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like, you know, Simon Sinek Ted talk or something

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like that, which I'm a fan of. But I think, you

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know, so I would say the first thing is I think

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we underestimate because we, you know, I've dealt

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with people before. I've coached my kids soccer

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team. I've, you know, done done whatever that

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we assume. How hard could it be? How hard could

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it be to be a manager? Right. And then we take

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that role on and we're like, this is way harder

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than I ever thought about. And even if you've

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done it really well in one situation, maybe there's

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something totally different, right? Like I know,

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and something we might talk about on this episode

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is like, if you go from managing people that

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you were peers with, or friends with, or for

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business owners, where a family member like,

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that's a whole different ball game than, you

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know, managing folks that you hired. Or maybe

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you inherited the team versus got to handpick

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folks from the beginning. So it's not just about

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like a one size fits all. And I think we can

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oversimplify it because it's just like humans

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and we deal with humans every day. And I think

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it's such a big issue because we don't stop and

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treat it like, hey, if I need to learn how to,

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you know, like learn a trade or something, like

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if I became a cousin, you know, went up through

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ranks. doing like electrical, right? Like he

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was like trade, worked in the trade and then

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he became a journey man and now he's working

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in corporate. Like he learned and had these gates

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and like you learn these skills and you can't

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progress if you haven't spent time doing that

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and like proven it. With leaders, it's just like,

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okay, you know what I mean? Like, woo, go for

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it. and we're learning in front of an audience

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of people that are relying on us to pick it up

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pretty quickly. So I think that's the genesis

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of the of why it is so hard. One, we're not given

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training and because we beat ourselves up because

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we feel like we should already kind of know it

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and we don't treat it the same as if we're learning,

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you know, if you become an engineer, you go through

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computer science training, all these things,

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you know, if you become a, you know, run a hair

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salon, you've gone through, you know, you know,

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getting, you know, the training there, whatever

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it is like, but to be a leader. Like, there's

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no qualification, actually. Right, right. But

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you have to, you know, people rely on you to

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get it right. So it's so complicated. It is so

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complicated, and you're so right. Companies don't

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set up their employees for success, right? No.

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From the training and understanding the emotional

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intelligence piece and the people piece. And

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I have seen so many times where someone's really

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good, to your point, of a skill. They might be

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a really good salesperson and they can crush

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their goals and they're doing amazing things.

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So it's like, oh, well, we should put her in

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charge of more salespeople. Well, guess what?

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That's a totally different skill set than going

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out and selling. So, you know, it happens time

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and time again. And I think so many of us, I

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think that early in my career, I just thought

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I wanted to be I wanted a higher title, right?

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I wanted to be the manager, the director, and

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wanted to grow for title, money, whatever the

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reasons are, that we don't really realize what

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comes along with actually managing people and

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this huge responsibility that it is. Yeah. Yeah,

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exactly. Or I think on the flip side, folks that

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could be a great leader don't want to do it because

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they're like, I don't want to do the paperwork

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and all this other stuff. They also don't understand

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what it's about. I think, yeah, exactly you're

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saying. And for an entrepreneur or a business

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owner or a founder, you had this idea, this vision,

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maybe it's something that you were very good

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at, like, and so, or a problem that you identified

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that you would have wanted solved for yourself.

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That's a lot of times a business kind of idea

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comes from that. And managing people, overseeing

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a team and spelling it out for those, like, has

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zero to do with what you've ever thought would

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come with it, you know? And again, it's not your

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fault, but a lot of business owners that come

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to me say like, I didn't sign up for this. I

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didn't want to be a manager. I don't want to

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have to deal with this. And I'm like, well, if

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you've hired people, you kind of like did sign

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up for it. And that's where I come in to help

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it make it easier for them. Yeah. And you're

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right. It's not just an HR policy and paperwork.

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It's handling that day to day. And as you were

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saying, I was thinking of a friend of mine who

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owns a hair salon and a clothing boutique. And

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she is a solopreneur at this point. And there's

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been times where people worked for her. And she's

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like, I don't want people to work for me. I don't

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want to have to deal with other schedules and

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the conflict and the time. And she's like, I

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just want to come in, do my job, and move on.

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I'm like, I can totally see why you say that.

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Because it is a lot. And then the other piece,

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I think with your friend's example, she's having

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to work more and bring in more business to pay

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for these other people who may or may not also

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be growing the business and usually are not helping

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to grow the business, frankly. And I think it's

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something a lot of us think about is like at

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a certain point, is there diminishing returns

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on hiring? And I think a lot of times we try

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to solve bottlenecks or not getting enough work

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done or growing the business through hiring more

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people. And it's not always the answer. It can

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create a lot more complexity before that becomes

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the right answer. And when you're going to hire,

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that's where you need a lot of systems in place

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to ensure that those people are deployed in the

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right way. Yeah. It's definitely a complicated,

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you know, I think level when you kind of step

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into that. So let's say someone's listening to

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this and they are a manager, right? They're like,

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oh crap, too late. I'm already in this. I already

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have people reporting to me and I need to know

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what some of those pitfalls are that they don't

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want to be on the other end of somebody listening

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to an episode about being a micromanager, bad

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boss, toxic person. What are some of those pitfalls

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that you most often see with managers? Yeah.

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Thinking across all the managers that I had,

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even ones that I liked in general, but still

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got in the way for me feeling like I could really

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do my best. I say that first because you made

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the point, any of us are micromanaging on purpose.

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We're not like, yeah, I'm gonna do that, right?

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It's like, it's saying, I'm not something, I'm

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not, a need is not being met for me, whether

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that is because of your own stress or your own,

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you know, wanting to feel a sense of control

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over what's going on or because economic uncertainty,

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whatever it looks like. And so we start to hold

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on a little bit tighter. And there's a specific

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set of things that I started to think about that

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I saw over and over again. these three tells

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that you're inadvertently, not on purpose, right?

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Falling into this micromanagement trap. And these

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are things that managers, behaviors they did

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to me in corporate. And I say that because I

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was a very high performer. I was a 10Xer. I was

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the person you could go to for anything. I would

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get it done right away. And still people micromanage,

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right? And I say that because I think we need

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to understand we might be doing this to our best

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person just as likely as we might do be doing

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this to our person who like barely can follow

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instructions. And the problem is, is when you

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micromanage your best person, because this is

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what happened to me, they look at you like, well,

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why am I even here? Like, nevermind. And you

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can - You don't need me. You don't need me. Forget

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it. And it is like, I think your, you know, your

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lower performance might need a little bit of

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handholding. Your high performers are going to

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say, I'm done. And so not only is this something

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to save yourself time, it is to like not lose

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your best people because they feel like you don't

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trust them or don't value them or just that you're

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putting a ceiling on their possible growth, you

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know? And so these three tells are, first is

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when you are in every single meeting. And so

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I remember at Google, I had a manager who, you

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know, you couldn't even get 15 minutes with her

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because she was drowning in meetings. Every single

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day she was in meeting after meeting after meeting.

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And you know, she would talk about it, you know,

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a little bit, maybe almost like a point of pride,

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like, I'm so busy. I'm so slammed. I'm, you know,

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I don't have any time. And in fairness, like

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when I needed something, she would carve out

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time to talk to me. So again, very supportive,

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like on paper, we got along very well. And she

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was really encouraging of the work that I was

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doing, but she was also in every single meeting,

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the meetings I was in the meeting, the other

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perform like employees were in. And that's the

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first tell because when you're in every single

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meeting, it is a signal that you are not trusting

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your team to be able to handle like any conversation

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without you. There's going to be some meetings

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of course you need to be in but I think the first

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piece of are you in every meeting and taking

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a really honest look at your calendar probably

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on a monthly or quarterly basis going through

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all of your meetings and saying where could I

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actually have another team member run this maybe

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it's a client presentation for someone that's

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a recurring client and they're really under they

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know the team well. It's not maybe a new business

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or maybe it's running a team meeting or like

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a project team meeting where someone could share

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the action items afterwards and catch you up.

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So I'm not saying it's everything. But to get

00:11:56.740 --> 00:11:58.899
out of this trap of having to be in every single

00:11:58.899 --> 00:12:02.539
meeting, it's to start to identify where you

00:12:02.539 --> 00:12:05.000
can step out. Now this is so important because

00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:07.559
if you are there, even if your employees want

00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:09.299
you to be there because you solve problems for

00:12:09.299 --> 00:12:11.700
them, they're never going to be able to step

00:12:11.700 --> 00:12:14.139
up. if you're always there. So you're going to

00:12:14.139 --> 00:12:16.360
always have to be in all the meetings. And so

00:12:16.360 --> 00:12:18.960
that's our first thing is being in every meeting

00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.799
truly is micromanaging because you have not let

00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:26.299
go enough. to let someone else, you know, try

00:12:26.299 --> 00:12:29.399
it and maybe mess up or try it and actually do

00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:30.960
even better than you would have been leading

00:12:30.960 --> 00:12:33.720
this conversation. And so that's our first tell.

00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:36.279
So like if you're wondering, how do I know? First

00:12:36.279 --> 00:12:37.860
thing you got to look at your calendar and you're

00:12:37.860 --> 00:12:42.299
like, oh, I've been 35 hours a week. Yes. Like

00:12:42.299 --> 00:12:45.200
that's number one. Number two is very closely

00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:48.139
related to this. It's that are you making every

00:12:48.139 --> 00:12:51.679
decision? So employees come to you and they say,

00:12:51.740 --> 00:12:53.860
I just want to run something by you. Or, you

00:12:53.860 --> 00:12:55.299
know, hey, you know, I know we talked about this

00:12:55.299 --> 00:12:57.179
already, but like, does this look right? And

00:12:57.179 --> 00:12:59.580
it seems very harmless at first. Seems like a

00:12:59.580 --> 00:13:02.059
gut check. They trust your opinion. They value

00:13:02.059 --> 00:13:05.379
what you have to say. It doesn't feel like they,

00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:07.759
you know, are afraid of you, right? So I, you

00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:10.759
know, but it's similar to the meanings. If you're

00:13:10.759 --> 00:13:13.340
making every single decision, there is a certain

00:13:13.340 --> 00:13:15.519
level of distance your employees will take something.

00:13:15.730 --> 00:13:17.809
and you will never be able to be out of that

00:13:17.809 --> 00:13:19.850
role of the final improver. So it causes a number

00:13:19.850 --> 00:13:22.350
of issues. One, if you step away and go on vacation

00:13:22.350 --> 00:13:24.470
or, you know, are just offline for an hour, you're

00:13:24.470 --> 00:13:26.789
gonna have a queue of like 18 decisions that

00:13:26.789 --> 00:13:28.870
people were waiting on. So now you're losing

00:13:28.870 --> 00:13:30.730
time, now you're losing money, now you're potentially

00:13:30.730 --> 00:13:33.730
losing business, right, because of that. Or you're

00:13:33.730 --> 00:13:35.350
losing, you know, if you work in a corporate

00:13:35.350 --> 00:13:37.830
team, you're maybe missing a deadline or, you

00:13:37.830 --> 00:13:39.289
know, you're holding up another team for moving

00:13:39.289 --> 00:13:41.830
forward. So it creates a massive bottleneck.

00:13:42.019 --> 00:13:44.340
But again, just like with the meetings, it prevents

00:13:44.340 --> 00:13:47.240
your team from thinking, okay, how would I solve

00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:50.679
this? Well, okay, I would do this. Thinking about

00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:52.639
ideas, it prevents them from taking ownership

00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:55.379
and saying, well, this is my project. I need

00:13:55.379 --> 00:13:58.240
to figure out the decision. And so our solution

00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:01.019
for that is to when your employees come to you

00:14:01.019 --> 00:14:03.879
asking for you to make the call, flipping and

00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:06.860
saying, what do you think? It's a simple question

00:14:06.860 --> 00:14:09.190
or what would you try here? And if they say,

00:14:09.330 --> 00:14:11.789
I don't know, it's too hard. Like, well, you

00:14:11.789 --> 00:14:13.009
know, go talk to some other people what's worked

00:14:13.009 --> 00:14:15.830
in the past and keep putting that accountability

00:14:15.830 --> 00:14:18.169
ball back in their court. And they're gonna start

00:14:18.169 --> 00:14:20.830
to build the muscle, right? This both puts the

00:14:20.830 --> 00:14:22.870
ownership back on them and it shows them that

00:14:22.870 --> 00:14:25.529
you trust them, right? So that's gonna be how

00:14:25.529 --> 00:14:28.730
we solve the second one. Third sign that you're

00:14:28.730 --> 00:14:31.710
a micromanager is, and this one is a little bit

00:14:31.710 --> 00:14:34.070
controversial. Not everyone agrees with this.

00:14:34.330 --> 00:14:36.549
When your employees are asking for more projects.

00:14:36.970 --> 00:14:40.789
and you are not identifying anything to let go

00:14:40.789 --> 00:14:44.850
of. This is also a sign that a high performer

00:14:44.850 --> 00:14:46.470
is going to leave. And that's the controversial

00:14:46.470 --> 00:14:49.029
part, because when I posted that on Instagram,

00:14:49.629 --> 00:14:52.330
like I said, this is one of the biggest signs

00:14:52.330 --> 00:14:54.190
a high performer is about to quit is when they

00:14:54.190 --> 00:14:56.590
ask for more projects. And like 100 comments

00:14:56.590 --> 00:14:58.389
said, if I'm quitting, I'm not asking for more

00:14:58.389 --> 00:15:00.710
work. And I was like, okay, I said high performers,

00:15:00.950 --> 00:15:05.590
sorry. And then second, I said, okay, well. The

00:15:05.590 --> 00:15:08.190
reason this is both micromanaging and assigned

00:15:08.190 --> 00:15:12.289
is because someone that is doing a good job that

00:15:12.289 --> 00:15:14.409
wants to know there's a future for them is putting

00:15:14.409 --> 00:15:17.210
their feelers out. And they're saying, hey, you

00:15:17.210 --> 00:15:19.669
know, I want more responsibility here. I want

00:15:19.669 --> 00:15:21.830
to take something more on. And they're looking

00:15:21.830 --> 00:15:24.110
to how you answer this. Right. They're looking

00:15:24.110 --> 00:15:27.309
to you. And so with this manager at Google that

00:15:27.309 --> 00:15:29.549
was doing all three of these things on a daily

00:15:29.549 --> 00:15:33.450
basis, I remember so vividly wrapping up a project

00:15:33.450 --> 00:15:36.960
and I said to her, Hey, you know, I've got some

00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:38.779
bandwidth. I'd love to, you know, take on, you

00:15:38.779 --> 00:15:41.320
know, some more work here. And she said, oh,

00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.279
that's so great. I'm so glad because I'm so busy.

00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:44.899
I need help with this. Let me come back to you

00:15:44.899 --> 00:15:46.840
in a few days. I'm going to think about what

00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:48.940
would be really helpful. So I'm thinking, okay,

00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:50.399
great. This is awesome. You know, maybe I can

00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:52.840
get my work in front of the VP or whatever. She

00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:54.980
comes back to me and says, okay, I really, again,

00:15:55.039 --> 00:15:57.000
appreciate you, you know, saying that you could

00:15:57.000 --> 00:15:59.120
help out with some stuff. I looked across everything

00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:01.360
and, you know, we have this big meeting coming

00:16:01.360 --> 00:16:03.700
up. I'd love for you to join and take the notes

00:16:03.700 --> 00:16:10.629
in the meeting. And I'm like, what? That's it?

00:16:10.830 --> 00:16:14.070
Like it was a slap in the face. And to me, like

00:16:14.070 --> 00:16:16.610
that was the beginning of the end because like

00:16:16.610 --> 00:16:19.230
that's literally what she can come up with. I

00:16:19.230 --> 00:16:21.250
mean, this was, you know, six, seven years ago

00:16:21.250 --> 00:16:23.350
before the AI note taker. So like somebody had

00:16:23.350 --> 00:16:25.889
to take some. So like, this is just like wild.

00:16:25.909 --> 00:16:28.129
Like that's what you're using your best person

00:16:28.129 --> 00:16:32.409
for when they say like, let me help. Yeah. So

00:16:32.409 --> 00:16:35.610
it's like, And then, and so when I thought about

00:16:35.610 --> 00:16:38.629
these three patterns, all three of those were

00:16:38.629 --> 00:16:40.769
about her, they weren't about me. And that's

00:16:40.769 --> 00:16:42.450
why this is such an important conversation for

00:16:42.450 --> 00:16:46.610
this episode is these are about our, as the leader,

00:16:48.690 --> 00:16:51.490
like inability to let go of control. Not because

00:16:51.490 --> 00:16:53.450
there's something wrong with us, but because

00:16:53.450 --> 00:16:55.889
we might be worried again, like if we're not

00:16:55.889 --> 00:16:57.509
at every meeting that something's gonna go wrong.

00:16:57.710 --> 00:16:59.409
we might be worried if we're not in front of

00:16:59.409 --> 00:17:01.429
the client that, you know, they're going to think

00:17:01.429 --> 00:17:03.789
they got the B team or something. If we're not

00:17:03.789 --> 00:17:06.289
in front of the VP, then they might ask a hard

00:17:06.289 --> 00:17:08.609
question our team member can't field. So that

00:17:08.609 --> 00:17:11.190
might be why we're in every meeting. If we're

00:17:11.190 --> 00:17:12.950
making every decision, it might be because we

00:17:12.950 --> 00:17:14.869
have a really junior team and they don't really

00:17:14.869 --> 00:17:17.690
make the right calls yet, right? Or because we've

00:17:17.690 --> 00:17:19.970
been burned before, right? And then with someone

00:17:19.970 --> 00:17:22.650
asking for more work, we might be so busy, so

00:17:22.650 --> 00:17:24.569
buried that we can't stop and think of what someone

00:17:24.569 --> 00:17:26.650
would take on, even if we would love for them

00:17:26.650 --> 00:17:29.720
to do it. And so all of these are really about

00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:33.920
us as that leader. And so it's, and I share these

00:17:33.920 --> 00:17:36.859
three tells because they don't feel like you're

00:17:36.859 --> 00:17:39.279
micromanaging at the time. It just seems like

00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:41.480
I'm busy and you're working, you're getting through

00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.559
stuff. But each of those very, very specifically

00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:49.119
prevent your team from taking more on and...

00:17:49.220 --> 00:17:52.099
whether you like it or not, I'm telling you firsthand,

00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:56.000
they tell your team members, I don't value you

00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:59.960
enough to let you try this. I don't trust you

00:17:59.960 --> 00:18:03.359
that you'll do the right thing. And I'm actually

00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:05.420
like, I wanna control the information that's

00:18:05.420 --> 00:18:07.920
going through this team. That's what they hear,

00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:10.099
and it may not be true, right? So that's why

00:18:10.099 --> 00:18:12.000
we wanted to make sure you know that, right?

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:15.640
Right. Oh, my gosh. That is so dead on. And it's

00:18:15.640 --> 00:18:17.299
funny, as you're saying that, I can think of

00:18:17.299 --> 00:18:18.900
people through my career, whether it was my managers

00:18:18.900 --> 00:18:21.700
or just peers that I would see doing that. And

00:18:21.700 --> 00:18:24.140
a lot of times, if they would start to be a little

00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:25.619
bit aware of that, sometimes you hear, well,

00:18:25.660 --> 00:18:28.119
I have high expectations or I need to be in the

00:18:28.119 --> 00:18:30.440
know. There's all these excuses. And some of

00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:32.440
it was somebody who wanted to continue to grow

00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:34.759
in their career. But the reality is, when all

00:18:34.759 --> 00:18:36.720
that's happening, you're not going to have the

00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:40.019
ability to continue to grow, right? You're, as

00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:42.480
a manager, part of how you're judged, graded,

00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:44.839
is how successful your team is. So they're like,

00:18:44.920 --> 00:18:47.480
oh, well, she hasn't created this culture of

00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:49.660
high performers. It's like, OK, maybe she can't

00:18:49.660 --> 00:18:53.799
go to the VP level or that next level. So thinking

00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:56.220
that you're in control because of your high expectations

00:18:56.220 --> 00:18:58.400
eventually is only going to get you to a certain

00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:01.119
ceiling. And then that's it. Like, people will

00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:03.619
realize you're not ready for that next level

00:19:03.619 --> 00:19:06.509
because no one's doing this. by themselves. Yeah

00:19:06.509 --> 00:19:11.910
it's so true and I think it's the the definition

00:19:11.910 --> 00:19:14.730
of success changes when you become a leader and

00:19:14.730 --> 00:19:17.230
like you just called out that is one of the shifts

00:19:17.230 --> 00:19:19.869
that no one preps you for either and I think

00:19:19.869 --> 00:19:22.450
that's the problem too is we can be great at

00:19:22.450 --> 00:19:25.589
the doing at the executing at the you know tactical

00:19:25.589 --> 00:19:28.970
piece and if we don't know how to like get results

00:19:28.970 --> 00:19:32.380
through other people and show other people how

00:19:32.380 --> 00:19:33.700
to do that, like you mentioned with the sales

00:19:33.700 --> 00:19:36.019
leader that becomes a sales manager, it really

00:19:36.019 --> 00:19:37.960
does start to reflect on us like we actually

00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:40.200
don't know how to do that. And it will become

00:19:40.200 --> 00:19:42.740
the beginning of the end on our own growth. And

00:19:42.740 --> 00:19:46.680
I think it can, it does feel like the rug got

00:19:46.680 --> 00:19:48.920
pulled out from under you, right? The literal

00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:51.819
definition of success has changed and you have

00:19:51.819 --> 00:19:55.390
to think about, okay, well, what... What does,

00:19:55.630 --> 00:19:57.650
how do you measure success in this situation?

00:19:57.990 --> 00:19:59.849
One of the tools I have in my book, The New Manager

00:19:59.849 --> 00:20:03.569
Playbook is actually thinking about like, what

00:20:03.569 --> 00:20:06.130
is your identity as a manager? What are the qualities

00:20:06.130 --> 00:20:08.950
that you wanna embody? How do you wanna show

00:20:08.950 --> 00:20:10.769
up as a leader? And it's not just when things

00:20:10.769 --> 00:20:13.269
are going well, but you know, what do you, how

00:20:13.269 --> 00:20:15.329
do you wanna show up when everything is going

00:20:15.329 --> 00:20:17.269
wrong and you're stressed and you're frustrated

00:20:17.269 --> 00:20:20.109
and there's a reorg or layoffs coming. And the

00:20:20.109 --> 00:20:22.650
reason that I encourage folks to do this exercise,

00:20:22.730 --> 00:20:24.349
and it's like the first or second chapter of

00:20:24.349 --> 00:20:28.089
the book, is because I think we get this role,

00:20:28.109 --> 00:20:30.990
we jump right in, we just kind of like are doing,

00:20:31.109 --> 00:20:33.630
doing, doing, and then something big happens.

00:20:34.670 --> 00:20:39.170
And if we had thought about like how, like let's

00:20:39.170 --> 00:20:41.569
say the quality I want to embody is being really

00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:43.630
transparent and compassionate. Like let's say

00:20:43.630 --> 00:20:46.049
that really stands out to me because I believe

00:20:46.049 --> 00:20:48.180
that You need the information you need to do

00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:50.339
your job well. And of course, I want to be compassionate.

00:20:50.339 --> 00:20:51.859
I want people to feel safe, you know, coming

00:20:51.859 --> 00:20:54.619
to me. If I've identified those qualities, okay,

00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:56.519
that's great when everything's going well. But

00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:59.980
how do I show up with transparency when I know

00:20:59.980 --> 00:21:02.720
there's layoffs coming? Do I cancel all my meetings?

00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:07.099
Do I avoid my team? No, right? I say, hey, here's

00:21:07.099 --> 00:21:08.559
the knowns, here's the unknowns, here's what

00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:11.200
I'm able to share right now. It gives you a,

00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:13.480
like a north star for how to communicate when

00:21:13.480 --> 00:21:16.059
you feel like completely, you know, I don't know

00:21:16.059 --> 00:21:18.119
what to do here. Same thing with compassionate.

00:21:18.579 --> 00:21:19.740
You know, it's great when everyone's doing a

00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:22.119
great job, but how do you show up compassionately

00:21:22.119 --> 00:21:25.920
when someone has a terrible attitude or someone

00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:28.140
keeps being out sick and having another excuse

00:21:28.140 --> 00:21:29.440
and you don't believe anything they're telling

00:21:29.440 --> 00:21:31.980
you. And it's like you're, you feel frustrated

00:21:31.980 --> 00:21:35.299
about the situation. or someone made a huge mistake

00:21:35.299 --> 00:21:38.039
and it lost a client or it like blew a deadline.

00:21:38.539 --> 00:21:41.480
How do you still show up that way? That's why

00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:44.119
we got to start there, you know, and I think

00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:48.259
that's why that's so important is because showing

00:21:48.259 --> 00:21:51.180
up consistently, even when it's hard, that's

00:21:51.180 --> 00:21:54.099
what builds trust because trust is reinforced

00:21:54.099 --> 00:21:56.920
through predictability. Oh, you know, I get the

00:21:56.920 --> 00:21:59.539
same Leah on Thursday as I get on Monday. she

00:21:59.539 --> 00:22:01.980
doesn't think sometimes it's okay to start the

00:22:01.980 --> 00:22:04.000
meeting at nine and then it's 9 15 other days

00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:05.579
and then when I show up at 9 15 she's mad at

00:22:05.579 --> 00:22:08.259
me or sometimes it's okay if this deadline is

00:22:08.259 --> 00:22:10.819
flexible and then the next time it's not when

00:22:10.819 --> 00:22:13.539
we show up erratically because we haven't thought

00:22:13.539 --> 00:22:16.900
about it that makes your team feel like lag I

00:22:16.900 --> 00:22:20.380
don't know who I'm getting and then that creates

00:22:20.380 --> 00:22:23.900
a sense of like a lack of safety you know and

00:22:23.900 --> 00:22:26.640
and and that can cause people to feel like well

00:22:26.930 --> 00:22:28.950
I don't really know how to be successful here

00:22:28.950 --> 00:22:31.410
and that causes all sorts of issues, right? So

00:22:31.410 --> 00:22:34.309
I think that's a really like a starting point,

00:22:34.369 --> 00:22:36.829
I think, no matter how long you've been a leader,

00:22:37.369 --> 00:22:38.769
whether it's new or you've been doing it for

00:22:38.769 --> 00:22:42.069
decades, to really think about what are one or

00:22:42.069 --> 00:22:45.230
two qualities that I really want to embody, especially

00:22:45.230 --> 00:22:48.309
when it's hard, and then run through some scenarios

00:22:48.309 --> 00:22:51.089
of what does that look like when this quality

00:22:51.089 --> 00:22:54.089
is really being put to the test? And then that's

00:22:54.089 --> 00:22:56.089
going to give you a lot of information about

00:22:56.089 --> 00:22:59.450
how to show up consistently to your team. I love

00:22:59.450 --> 00:23:01.970
that. And you're so right. It's when things aren't

00:23:01.970 --> 00:23:04.109
all sunshine and roses, right? Like it's easy

00:23:04.109 --> 00:23:06.750
to be the cheerleader, rah -rah kind of leader

00:23:06.750 --> 00:23:09.230
a lot of times and maybe reinforce positive behavior,

00:23:09.269 --> 00:23:12.069
all that. Some of that comes more naturally than

00:23:12.069 --> 00:23:14.990
others. But when stuff is tough and hard and

00:23:14.990 --> 00:23:17.789
just messy, which is happening to a lot of people

00:23:17.789 --> 00:23:20.130
right now, right? Like it's a very difficult

00:23:20.130 --> 00:23:23.269
time. How are you having those genuine support,

00:23:23.269 --> 00:23:25.430
conversations, transparency, consistency, all

00:23:25.430 --> 00:23:28.079
the things? which I would assume, and I think

00:23:28.079 --> 00:23:30.059
it's totally fair that most leaders aren't stopping

00:23:30.059 --> 00:23:32.140
and thinking about because you're running a million

00:23:32.140 --> 00:23:34.359
miles an hour, right? You're just getting things

00:23:34.359 --> 00:23:37.460
done, trying to be in survival mode, which totally

00:23:37.460 --> 00:23:40.559
understand, but it is taking that step back and

00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:42.019
just sitting there and being intentional about

00:23:42.019 --> 00:23:44.259
like, okay, how do I want people to describe

00:23:44.259 --> 00:23:46.359
me as a leader? Like, I love that. That's actually

00:23:46.359 --> 00:23:49.220
good, easy exercise to do. Yeah, absolutely.

00:23:50.420 --> 00:23:54.759
So what is another big area of opportunity for

00:23:54.759 --> 00:23:57.059
managers that they seem to get tripped up on

00:23:57.059 --> 00:23:59.960
micromanaging, as I said, number one topic. Yeah,

00:24:00.339 --> 00:24:02.180
yeah. But what else do we see where managers

00:24:02.180 --> 00:24:05.200
sort of lose that focus that impacts how they

00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:07.500
manage their team? Yeah, I think, you know, and

00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:09.480
we touched on it a little bit, like, I think

00:24:09.480 --> 00:24:12.259
we can fall into the micromanaging when you feel

00:24:12.259 --> 00:24:16.160
like, I don't want to micromanage butt, right?

00:24:16.180 --> 00:24:19.980
And so there's this open -ended sentence of like,

00:24:20.019 --> 00:24:22.539
but nobody's listening, I'm repeating myself

00:24:22.539 --> 00:24:24.759
many times, it's faster to myself, blah, blah,

00:24:24.779 --> 00:24:28.920
blah, right? And so I think that's the place

00:24:28.920 --> 00:24:31.240
to look at what's on the other end of that sentence.

00:24:31.660 --> 00:24:34.339
Like, because you're gonna get some information,

00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.000
is it that, and I actually just did an episode

00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:39.740
this week on my podcast, Managing Made Simple,

00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:42.720
about the feeling that we have to micromanage

00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.059
or we can't delegate because your team doesn't

00:24:45.059 --> 00:24:48.359
feel a sense of urgency, right? And so you may

00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:50.990
not micromanage you don't want to micromanage

00:24:50.990 --> 00:24:53.910
but when you ask someone to do something you

00:24:53.910 --> 00:24:56.150
think it's like a quick task and they go on it

00:24:56.150 --> 00:24:57.690
and then they never finish it or it's like a

00:24:57.690 --> 00:24:59.190
week later and you're like what happened to that

00:24:59.190 --> 00:25:01.230
so then you say okay I guess I should just do

00:25:01.230 --> 00:25:05.589
it myself so that's the the but you know looking

00:25:05.589 --> 00:25:10.450
at that because with the sense of urgency and

00:25:10.450 --> 00:25:12.309
I'll walk through this in a second that's a very

00:25:12.309 --> 00:25:14.890
specific set of actions you can do to fix that

00:25:14.890 --> 00:25:19.299
if you say but nobody's really you know trained

00:25:19.299 --> 00:25:21.440
enough to do it. Now you can introduce training,

00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:24.539
but gosh, I think I've hired the wrong person.

00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:27.680
Now you can start to look at, are they a fit?

00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:29.579
Do they need performance management? Is it training?

00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:33.680
We've got to look at what the reason that's blocking

00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:37.380
us or justifying micromanaging because on the

00:25:37.380 --> 00:25:40.420
other side of that is like every single thing

00:25:40.420 --> 00:25:42.880
has a potentially different path. And so if you

00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:44.779
bucket it all together and be like, I don't want

00:25:44.779 --> 00:25:47.000
to micromanage, but my team just like isn't there.

00:25:49.819 --> 00:25:52.900
It's too broad of a reason and you can't solve

00:25:52.900 --> 00:25:55.140
it. So you're just gonna keep micromanaging.

00:25:55.599 --> 00:25:58.119
So let's start with, I don't wanna micromanage,

00:25:58.519 --> 00:26:01.140
but when I ask my team to do something, they

00:26:01.140 --> 00:26:03.259
say, yeah, I'm gonna do it. And then nobody does

00:26:03.259 --> 00:26:05.319
anything for days. And so I'm like, okay, I guess

00:26:05.319 --> 00:26:06.900
I should do that. Or I reassign it to someone

00:26:06.900 --> 00:26:11.279
else and then they're mad. So that is solved

00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:15.150
through three things. First, Not just asking

00:26:15.150 --> 00:26:17.269
someone, hey, can you send out the client report

00:26:17.269 --> 00:26:19.130
or hey, can you follow up with Sarah on that?

00:26:19.730 --> 00:26:22.430
First is adding a deadline. I know it's very

00:26:22.430 --> 00:26:24.789
simple, but a lot of times we think it's obvious

00:26:24.789 --> 00:26:26.410
that it needs to be right away, right? Because

00:26:26.410 --> 00:26:28.809
you're the boss and you ask them and then your

00:26:28.809 --> 00:26:30.589
employee has other stuff on their list and they're

00:26:30.589 --> 00:26:31.930
like, okay, cool. I'll get to that when I get

00:26:31.930 --> 00:26:34.509
to it. So saying, hey, can you follow up with

00:26:34.509 --> 00:26:37.769
Sarah on where the deck is at by three o 'clock

00:26:37.769 --> 00:26:42.670
today, by Thursday end of day, by Tuesday? That

00:26:42.670 --> 00:26:47.549
little deadline, has so much power because now

00:26:47.549 --> 00:26:49.769
you're putting a time constraint against it.

00:26:50.089 --> 00:26:52.190
Even if you felt like it was very obvious that

00:26:52.190 --> 00:26:55.069
it was important, add the deadline. Second piece

00:26:55.069 --> 00:26:58.849
is add some context behind the deadline so that

00:26:58.849 --> 00:27:01.710
it doesn't feel arbitrary. Again, may feel like

00:27:01.710 --> 00:27:03.049
as a leader you don't have to explain this, but

00:27:03.049 --> 00:27:05.650
it helps. So saying, hey, can you follow up with

00:27:05.650 --> 00:27:07.910
Sarah on the client presentation by Thursday

00:27:07.910 --> 00:27:10.369
afternoon? We've got to send it to the client

00:27:10.369 --> 00:27:12.910
by Thursday. by Friday morning so that they can

00:27:12.910 --> 00:27:15.630
review it and come back with questions. So now

00:27:15.630 --> 00:27:18.650
you've introduced like a context and a bit of

00:27:18.650 --> 00:27:21.869
a conflict if they miss that deadline, like this

00:27:21.869 --> 00:27:25.750
is important, hello, right? So, and then third,

00:27:26.410 --> 00:27:30.269
asking an open -ended question, we good, or even

00:27:30.269 --> 00:27:32.950
a yes or no, is that doable? What has to move

00:27:32.950 --> 00:27:34.970
off your plate to make that possible? You are

00:27:34.970 --> 00:27:37.769
giving them a final opportunity to say like,

00:27:37.910 --> 00:27:42.210
yes, I've got it, I will do it by then. And so

00:27:42.210 --> 00:27:44.690
it's like, this can be a five minute conversation,

00:27:45.130 --> 00:27:47.170
hand it off with the date, with the context on

00:27:47.170 --> 00:27:49.509
why the date matters, asking, yep, we're good.

00:27:49.990 --> 00:27:52.109
That's how you create a shared sense of urgency.

00:27:52.390 --> 00:27:55.069
Like I didn't just throw some random bunch of

00:27:55.069 --> 00:27:58.390
tasks on your list. This is important. This is

00:27:58.390 --> 00:28:01.049
why I'm giving you a chance to say, can you do

00:28:01.049 --> 00:28:03.470
it or not? Or what risks do you see? And it only

00:28:03.470 --> 00:28:06.089
takes five minutes. And so you don't have to,

00:28:06.349 --> 00:28:09.190
so that's going to solve that whole bucket of

00:28:09.190 --> 00:28:12.420
why, I wouldn't micromanage if everyone just

00:28:12.420 --> 00:28:14.519
like did something faster when I asked, you know?

00:28:14.619 --> 00:28:16.960
And like, I literally made this episode this

00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:19.920
week because my client that I met with on Friday

00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:22.099
said, and we went through like, what is his biggest

00:28:22.099 --> 00:28:24.940
frustration with his team? Is that, you know,

00:28:25.299 --> 00:28:27.779
he's thinking about work, you know, 24 hours

00:28:27.779 --> 00:28:30.059
a day and nobody else is and it's frustrating

00:28:30.059 --> 00:28:32.460
because when he asked the simplest things, they're

00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:34.640
like, cool, I'll get to it. And he has to follow

00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:38.769
up a hundred times. Right. And that is the easiest

00:28:38.769 --> 00:28:41.269
way to solve, I would say, 80 % of those cases.

00:28:42.009 --> 00:28:43.930
I couldn't agree with that more. And I would

00:28:43.930 --> 00:28:45.630
love to add one other piece to that, too, that

00:28:45.630 --> 00:28:48.009
I've learned by messing up is being really clear

00:28:48.009 --> 00:28:50.430
of who's accountable for it. If you're in a team

00:28:50.430 --> 00:28:53.190
setting, I would have, say, a leadership meeting

00:28:53.190 --> 00:28:55.069
where there is a project that multiple people

00:28:55.069 --> 00:28:57.670
are touching in certain ways. Maybe it's a sales,

00:28:57.809 --> 00:29:00.720
ops, marketing kind of project. And I would think

00:29:00.720 --> 00:29:02.700
it was very clear of who was doing what, and

00:29:02.700 --> 00:29:04.799
then a week would go by and it was like crickets,

00:29:04.980 --> 00:29:06.220
right? And it was like, well, this was supposed

00:29:06.220 --> 00:29:07.740
to be due this week. Well, I thought so and so

00:29:07.740 --> 00:29:09.539
was doing this. Okay, well, I want one person

00:29:09.539 --> 00:29:11.680
who I'm coming to that's accountable. I understand

00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:14.380
there's a lot of collaboration, teamwork, awesome,

00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:17.059
but at the end of the day, like one person has

00:29:17.059 --> 00:29:18.819
to be accountable when you're doing those checkups

00:29:18.819 --> 00:29:22.930
and nothing's moved. Exactly, exactly. So how

00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:25.789
much of our issues as managers comes down to

00:29:25.789 --> 00:29:28.210
communication and having hard conversations or

00:29:28.210 --> 00:29:30.269
just being really clear like how much of it really

00:29:30.269 --> 00:29:36.650
is a communication maybe a hundred percent Yeah,

00:29:36.650 --> 00:29:39.950
I would say all of it, right? Because whether

00:29:39.950 --> 00:29:43.849
it's a system or a process or a framework for

00:29:43.849 --> 00:29:45.710
a hard conversation or like we just walked through

00:29:45.710 --> 00:29:48.170
that three or four step, right? Having that named

00:29:48.170 --> 00:29:50.569
owners will be the fourth step of that urgency

00:29:50.569 --> 00:29:54.950
piece. Those are all communication moments. And

00:29:54.950 --> 00:29:59.750
the truth is I think right now with AI and kind

00:29:59.750 --> 00:30:01.890
of like using it to build out a plan and a message

00:30:01.890 --> 00:30:05.769
for your team, I think a lot of... leaders are

00:30:05.769 --> 00:30:09.230
overusing, you know, kind of quick things that

00:30:09.230 --> 00:30:11.329
they've worked through with AI and sending it

00:30:11.329 --> 00:30:13.390
in an email to their employees or slacking them

00:30:13.390 --> 00:30:16.289
in. And it's like, communication isn't just the

00:30:16.289 --> 00:30:19.109
words. It's just, it's not. It's all the follow

00:30:19.109 --> 00:30:21.190
through. It's having the conversation. It's what

00:30:21.190 --> 00:30:25.089
we just talked about asking. Are we good can

00:30:25.089 --> 00:30:27.450
you do this looking at their facial expression

00:30:27.450 --> 00:30:29.430
are they nodding but looking like they're about

00:30:29.430 --> 00:30:31.849
to throw up right are they like are they do they

00:30:31.849 --> 00:30:34.230
look mad that you've added to their list is it

00:30:34.230 --> 00:30:37.029
like you know there's there's so much more there

00:30:37.029 --> 00:30:39.410
and I wanna really remind everyone listening

00:30:39.410 --> 00:30:42.769
that all of the miscommunications that we have

00:30:42.769 --> 00:30:46.930
are like not all but like a huge you know majority

00:30:46.930 --> 00:30:50.549
are because. we've tried to go faster, we've

00:30:50.549 --> 00:30:52.369
shortcut it, maybe with AI, maybe with short

00:30:52.369 --> 00:30:54.630
sending an email and not checking in. And like,

00:30:54.630 --> 00:30:58.329
if you take that five minutes upfront, where

00:30:58.329 --> 00:31:01.230
you maybe get the team around for a huddle, maybe

00:31:01.230 --> 00:31:03.329
you communicate a hard message through a video

00:31:03.329 --> 00:31:05.630
so they can hear your tone. Maybe you check in

00:31:05.630 --> 00:31:08.210
with folks for 15 minutes after something, maybe,

00:31:08.569 --> 00:31:11.210
you know, just like introducing more ways to

00:31:11.210 --> 00:31:16.009
have humanness into communication. You find you

00:31:16.009 --> 00:31:19.029
have saved so much more time. Yeah, right. Because

00:31:19.029 --> 00:31:21.049
the back and forth is actually what causes so

00:31:21.049 --> 00:31:22.509
much time and the disconnects and two people

00:31:22.509 --> 00:31:24.990
working on the wrong things and whatever. So

00:31:24.990 --> 00:31:29.369
it's all communication. And when I work with

00:31:29.369 --> 00:31:31.990
corporate teams on manager development or running

00:31:31.990 --> 00:31:35.390
off sites or leadership in general, that is what

00:31:35.390 --> 00:31:39.470
all the strategies are about is how do we understand

00:31:39.470 --> 00:31:41.710
what is going on with our team, how we're showing

00:31:41.710 --> 00:31:43.970
up and really to bridge the two together. Same

00:31:43.970 --> 00:31:45.569
thing working with business owners and founders.

00:31:46.009 --> 00:31:49.309
I work in, it's a fractional COO capacity, so

00:31:49.309 --> 00:31:53.430
it's operations, but it's what our team systems,

00:31:53.910 --> 00:31:56.150
they are processes that are reinforced through

00:31:56.150 --> 00:31:59.210
communication. So it's not enough that we put

00:31:59.210 --> 00:32:02.809
all our tasks in a sauna, it's how are we making

00:32:02.809 --> 00:32:06.250
sure we're having conversations about when something

00:32:06.250 --> 00:32:08.470
is late, or there's another priority that seems

00:32:08.470 --> 00:32:11.150
just as important, right? It's like every communication

00:32:11.150 --> 00:32:13.130
that needs to happen to support the systems.

00:32:13.339 --> 00:32:15.359
So that's what I implement with business owners

00:32:15.359 --> 00:32:19.240
is. Interesting. Yeah. Like, or, okay, you've

00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:21.079
outlined, okay, this is a performance review.

00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:23.660
You talk about, you know, wins or whatever, errors,

00:32:23.859 --> 00:32:25.900
improvement, and then goals. Okay. But like,

00:32:25.960 --> 00:32:27.680
what does that conversation look like? What if

00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:29.339
your employee thought they did a great job and

00:32:29.339 --> 00:32:31.900
you didn't think they did? Or vice versa, right?

00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:33.859
You know what I mean? The worst. Yeah. It's just

00:32:33.859 --> 00:32:37.140
not about kind of like the what. It's about the

00:32:37.140 --> 00:32:41.970
how and how that message is being received. those

00:32:41.970 --> 00:32:45.390
moments, those communication like beats are very,

00:32:45.390 --> 00:32:48.829
very fast. They can be in 15 or 30 minute increments.

00:32:49.109 --> 00:32:51.049
Like I mentioned that, you know, getting on the

00:32:51.049 --> 00:32:52.950
same page on urgency is a five minute conversation.

00:32:53.410 --> 00:32:56.609
I think it's not to be afraid of talking to our

00:32:56.609 --> 00:32:59.430
teams or having empowering our managers to talk

00:32:59.430 --> 00:33:03.190
to their employees or asking for feedback. That's

00:33:03.190 --> 00:33:05.089
where everything just gets easier by opening

00:33:05.089 --> 00:33:08.450
those doors. No, that's so great. And you know,

00:33:08.470 --> 00:33:10.819
I've dealt with people on my team who maybe weren't

00:33:10.819 --> 00:33:12.799
great managers when you try to have those conversations.

00:33:12.920 --> 00:33:14.700
And I remember one person being like, well, I

00:33:14.700 --> 00:33:16.700
have one on ones every week with my people. And

00:33:16.700 --> 00:33:20.559
it's like, Okay, that's checking the box. Right.

00:33:20.740 --> 00:33:22.640
But what are you talking about in those one -on

00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:24.799
-ones? Exactly. How are you having the conversations?

00:33:24.900 --> 00:33:27.039
Are you being clear in communication? So again,

00:33:27.180 --> 00:33:29.500
going back to the meetings piece of it, just

00:33:29.500 --> 00:33:31.420
because that's happening or you have it on your

00:33:31.420 --> 00:33:33.059
calendar doesn't mean you're using that time

00:33:33.059 --> 00:33:35.200
appropriately or supporting the person in a way

00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:37.299
that is going to make sure that things are moving

00:33:37.299 --> 00:33:39.819
forward. So it's really looking at how you're

00:33:39.750 --> 00:33:42.789
engaging and interacting with your team and communicating.

00:33:43.269 --> 00:33:45.750
Obviously, you're right, 100 % comes down to

00:33:45.750 --> 00:33:48.329
communication, which is so hard, right? Because

00:33:48.329 --> 00:33:51.269
everyone's different. How somebody wants to be

00:33:51.269 --> 00:33:53.250
communicated to, how they receive it, how they

00:33:53.250 --> 00:33:56.369
perceive it, all the things, right? So that's

00:33:56.369 --> 00:33:58.940
why I think management is so important. difficult

00:33:58.940 --> 00:34:01.220
and how you treat one person. I mean, you want

00:34:01.220 --> 00:34:03.400
some form of consistency, but at the same time,

00:34:03.740 --> 00:34:05.500
everyone's a little different in how they respond.

00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:08.420
So it's trying to find the way or the playbook

00:34:08.420 --> 00:34:11.440
essentially of pulling that all together. So

00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:12.739
if someone's listening to this and they're like,

00:34:12.739 --> 00:34:17.190
holy shit, I saw some flags with the manager

00:34:17.190 --> 00:34:20.730
or the micromanager. I'm not sure of my communication,

00:34:20.849 --> 00:34:23.650
right? And I think great step one is identifying

00:34:23.650 --> 00:34:25.409
that, right? But if someone's listening to this

00:34:25.409 --> 00:34:27.150
thinking like, oh man, I think I have some work

00:34:27.150 --> 00:34:29.400
to do. how do you move forward without feeling

00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:31.360
overwhelmed? And of course, no magic wand, not

00:34:31.360 --> 00:34:34.280
gonna be manager of the year the next two weeks.

00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:37.619
So what are those initial steps look like? Yeah,

00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:40.019
I think first step would be to think about that

00:34:40.019 --> 00:34:42.539
manager intention, get that North Star, right?

00:34:42.960 --> 00:34:45.690
And this is literally identifying. let's say

00:34:45.690 --> 00:34:49.250
two qualities that embody what are leaders that

00:34:49.250 --> 00:34:51.349
you admire that you really want to show up like

00:34:51.349 --> 00:34:54.710
and that are authentic to you. So maybe you like

00:34:54.710 --> 00:34:56.369
Steve Jobs, but you're like, I don't want to

00:34:56.369 --> 00:34:59.030
be Steve Jobs, right? Not a good manager, I don't

00:34:59.030 --> 00:35:00.989
think, right? Not a good manager, right? But

00:35:00.989 --> 00:35:04.429
it's like, hey, I want people to feel inspired.

00:35:04.590 --> 00:35:07.469
Maybe that's the quality that you kind of resonated

00:35:07.469 --> 00:35:11.179
from that. So thinking about what are What are

00:35:11.179 --> 00:35:14.559
two like kind of behavior related qualities that

00:35:14.559 --> 00:35:16.760
embody how you want to show up and think about

00:35:16.760 --> 00:35:19.199
what that looks like and Maybe share that with

00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:21.519
your team and say hey, you know I've done some

00:35:21.519 --> 00:35:24.840
reflecting and this is really how I want to show

00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:27.659
up for you as a manager Can can you hold me accountable

00:35:27.659 --> 00:35:29.880
that well you share feedback if I'm not doing

00:35:29.880 --> 00:35:32.099
that, you know And and I want this to be, you

00:35:32.099 --> 00:35:34.800
know collaborative That I think is a conversation

00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:38.179
like nobody's having so I would say that's a

00:35:38.179 --> 00:35:41.179
really I think that's a good place to start on

00:35:41.179 --> 00:35:44.900
just your own personal reflections And then I

00:35:44.900 --> 00:35:47.900
love your point. I think the next piece is to

00:35:47.900 --> 00:35:51.099
think about the existing communication moments

00:35:51.099 --> 00:35:53.539
that you have with your employees, probably one

00:35:53.539 --> 00:35:56.380
-on -ones, team meetings, and maybe it's career

00:35:56.380 --> 00:35:58.800
conversations if you're having that, where are

00:35:58.800 --> 00:36:01.159
you getting to understand your employees' goals

00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:05.260
and their long -term vision for themselves. Thinking

00:36:05.260 --> 00:36:08.900
about those, let's say, three opportunities and

00:36:08.900 --> 00:36:12.389
saying, how am I using this time? in one -on

00:36:12.389 --> 00:36:15.389
-ones to your example, are we going through just

00:36:15.389 --> 00:36:16.949
status updates, things that I could have looked

00:36:16.949 --> 00:36:19.510
at in email or just like reading through Slack?

00:36:19.929 --> 00:36:21.630
Am I using that as an opportunity to get to know

00:36:21.630 --> 00:36:24.510
this person, to hear what they're excited about,

00:36:24.530 --> 00:36:27.170
to see where they're getting stuck? And in the

00:36:27.170 --> 00:36:29.250
new manager playbook in my book, I share agenda

00:36:29.250 --> 00:36:31.590
templates for these types of meetings because

00:36:31.590 --> 00:36:34.769
I think it can be easy to just think, well, I'm

00:36:34.769 --> 00:36:36.130
busy, I need to know the status of the project,

00:36:36.150 --> 00:36:39.010
so I'm gonna use this meeting for that. But there's...

00:36:39.019 --> 00:36:41.079
When we structure these conversations as a way

00:36:41.079 --> 00:36:44.659
to learn about your team, build rapport, understand

00:36:44.659 --> 00:36:49.010
how they think, now we can use those for other

00:36:49.010 --> 00:36:51.170
things that are really going to help them. If

00:36:51.170 --> 00:36:52.949
we understand what they're excited about, that

00:36:52.949 --> 00:36:55.519
makes us delegating a lot easier. because you

00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:58.400
can connect, you know, hey, I know, you know,

00:36:58.519 --> 00:37:01.619
you're really interested in leading a team one

00:37:01.619 --> 00:37:04.199
day. So I'd love for you to take over the onboarding

00:37:04.199 --> 00:37:06.559
process because it allows you to get experience

00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:08.420
working with new hires and helping them feel,

00:37:08.420 --> 00:37:11.440
you know, acclimated. You can connect the dots

00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:16.039
so much more easily. And so you have these moments

00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:18.099
built in where you can get to know your team.

00:37:18.340 --> 00:37:20.360
I think that would be another place I would start

00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:23.590
is like, Use the existing structure and just

00:37:23.590 --> 00:37:25.949
improve it, you know, make it a little bit, you

00:37:25.949 --> 00:37:28.329
know, more beneficial for both of you. Oh, I

00:37:28.329 --> 00:37:29.889
love that. That's so great. Well, and I know

00:37:29.889 --> 00:37:31.750
we're just scratching the surface. So if people

00:37:31.750 --> 00:37:34.469
want to learn more about your work and the Manager

00:37:34.469 --> 00:37:36.369
Playbook, where can they connect with you? Yeah.

00:37:36.690 --> 00:37:38.670
Learn more about me and my work at leagarvon

00:37:38.670 --> 00:37:41.510
.com. And if you're like, hey, I'd love to get

00:37:41.510 --> 00:37:43.070
some support. I don't know what this looks like.

00:37:43.110 --> 00:37:46.349
If it's manager coaching or training or support

00:37:46.349 --> 00:37:48.969
with your team operations, head to leagarvon

00:37:48.969 --> 00:37:52.289
.com slash call. And that'll link you to where

00:37:52.289 --> 00:37:53.869
you can schedule some time. And we just walk

00:37:53.869 --> 00:37:56.730
through like where are you getting stuck? And

00:37:56.730 --> 00:37:58.170
so I think that's That's the best place. Yeah,

00:37:58.170 --> 00:38:00.389
leahgarvin .com slash call. Perfect. Awesome.

00:38:00.429 --> 00:38:02.349
Well, thank you so much, Leah, for being here.

00:38:02.349 --> 00:38:03.869
And thank you for helping to make people better

00:38:03.869 --> 00:38:07.030
managers. Thank you. OK. Did anything in that

00:38:07.030 --> 00:38:10.010
conversation make you think, oh, crap, I think

00:38:10.010 --> 00:38:13.679
I do that? If it did, that's just useful information.

00:38:13.820 --> 00:38:16.159
You can't change a habit you haven't noticed.

00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:19.159
What stuck with me is how easily we can confuse

00:38:19.159 --> 00:38:22.659
being involved with being supportive. We're in

00:38:22.659 --> 00:38:24.800
every meeting. We're answering every question.

00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:27.780
We're making sure everything gets done. But are

00:38:27.780 --> 00:38:30.539
we giving our people a chance to grow or making

00:38:30.539 --> 00:38:34.380
sure they'll always need us? So this week, pick

00:38:34.380 --> 00:38:36.780
one thing. One meeting someone else can lead.

00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.820
One decision you can hand back by asking, I don't

00:38:39.820 --> 00:38:42.860
know, what do you think? Or one one -on -one

00:38:42.860 --> 00:38:44.900
where you spend less time collecting updates

00:38:44.900 --> 00:38:47.559
and more time understanding what that person

00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:50.860
wants to do next. You don't have to overhaul

00:38:50.860 --> 00:38:53.500
your management by Monday, but just start with

00:38:53.500 --> 00:38:56.769
one change and follow through. You can find Leah

00:38:56.769 --> 00:38:58.949
and her book, The New Manager Playbook, through

00:38:58.949 --> 00:39:00.949
the links in the show notes. And if you're getting

00:39:00.949 --> 00:39:03.050
something out of Loud and Lifted, please follow

00:39:03.050 --> 00:39:05.590
the show wherever you listen so the next episode

00:39:05.590 --> 00:39:09.409
finds its way to you. And if a manager came to

00:39:09.409 --> 00:39:11.630
mind while you were listening, send her the episode,

00:39:11.829 --> 00:39:13.809
maybe with a little context so it doesn't feel

00:39:13.809 --> 00:39:16.730
like an anonymous performance review. Thanks

00:39:16.730 --> 00:39:19.989
for listening. Until next time, stay loud and

00:39:19.989 --> 00:39:20.730
keep lifting.