Workplace Betrayal: How to Spot It, Set Boundaries, and Come Back Stronger (with Kristen Pucci)

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Welcome to Loud and Lifted. I'm your host, Betsy

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Hamm. Today's episode is one we've been wanting

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to have for a while. It's honest, it's vulnerable,

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and it's long overdue. We're talking about betrayal,

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how it shows up, why it hurts so deeply, and

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what it teaches us about trust, growth, and leadership.

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Joining me in person is Kristin Pucci, the powerhouse

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behind Cray, an intentional female -founded agency

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focused on brand and business alignment. Kristin

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has built her career helping businesses stay

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true to their values, even when it's hard. And

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today, she's bringing that same honesty to this

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conversation. We're diving into the messy moments,

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those times when someone you trusted didn't show

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up, they let you down or flat out worked against

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you. From broken friendships, to workplace politics,

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to being ghosted by women we thought were allies,

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this episode unpacks what betrayal really looks

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like and how to rise from it without becoming

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hardened. So whether you've been burned, you're

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healing, or you're wondering how to keep showing

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up without losing yourself, this one's for you.

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Let's get loud, let's get lifted, and let's get

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real. Welcome to Loud and Lifted, Kristin Pucci.

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I mean, I guess I should say thank you for having

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us since we are actually here in your studio

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for Create Creative. So thank you for hosting

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us for Loud and Lifted. Thank you so much. I'm

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so excited to be here. We just connected a couple

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weeks ago. Yes. And it was so fun kind of talking

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about the different topics and things like that.

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So I hope people will like this topic. I haven't

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listened to all your past episodes, but I've

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seen your recent ones. So I'm hopeful people

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will like what we talk about. We both like to

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talk, so this could be really good. Or really

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long. Or really long. It might be four parts.

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It'll be a four -part podcast. Yeah, for sure.

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So it's funny because after just our brief initial

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conversation, I was like, gosh, I feel like I've

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known you. We have a lot in common. You are an

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entrepreneur. You started your own business.

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And as we were talking about how this could tie

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into Loud and Lifted and our platform, you threw

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out a big word that you said, I would love to

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talk about this. And that big word was betrayal.

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And it wasn't related to talking about Love Island

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or whatever, right? Sorry, I have teenagers that

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are watching that, and you know all the betrayal

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that goes on in these reality shows. But with

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women in the workplace, and you said that, and

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I was like, oh. Oh, that's a great word. Because

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loud and lifted started with wanting to uplift

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women and support each other, because oftentimes

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we don't. And one of the times we don't is when

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we use that big or happen to do that big B word

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of betrayal. So let's get into it. And I think,

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first of all, just so everyone's on the same

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page, how do you define betrayal, especially

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in a relationship workplace standpoint? Yeah.

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So when I was doing Just research and just reflecting

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on my own experience with betrayal. I was like,

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okay What does it really feel like and how could

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how can it be? How could it make the most people

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understand it from a female perspective and I

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feel like what it is is it's giving the Perception

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that I am for you while actively working against

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you. Oh, yes. That's good. And I think that's

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the if I could Think about all of my reflection

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of whether it's personal friendships and professional

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friendships. It's always been a female either

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like, you know, subordinate or somebody, you

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know, that I reported to or somebody of equal

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that just they seemed like they were on my team.

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They would give this impression that they were

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and then I would find out that they weren't either

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very slowly with like putting little, you know,

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pieces together or it would be some major event

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that was like. Wow, you really put this together.

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You really spent some time on this. It was intentional.

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Yeah, you spent some time on this. So that would

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be my definition. That's a great example. Yeah.

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And something else, just when I course, I was

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kind of doing my little research on it, because

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it's something you don't. I mean, we've all experienced

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it, right? We've been on the other side of that.

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But it said about it being a violation of trust.

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And I was like, ooh, violation is a good word.

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Because to your point, we know there's people

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who aren't supportive of us and maybe aren't.

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work friends or whatever and you kind of expect

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some bad behavior but that the betrayal part

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is when you thought somebody really was you're

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on your side in your quarter you're a cheerleader

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and then suddenly something happens and you're

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betrayed and there's that violation of trust

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well they actively deceived you too right like

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and i think that's the hard part is when after

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the portion of being betrayed and i agree with

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you on the trust part there's the trust with

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them but you also lose the trust in yourself

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right because you're like what did i not see

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how did i not pick up on this like or the worst

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case is that you did see something and you ignored

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it because as humans, I think we want to, I mean,

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we don't naturally, I think, think the best of

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people, but we want to think the best of people.

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So we like saw something and we're like, wow,

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that didn't really feel good. You got a little

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dig at work and you're like, why'd she do that?

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Maybe she was just having a bad day. And then

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it's another dig, another dig. And so I just

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think it's the trust in yourself that gets worn

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down too. And then you look at everybody around,

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but yeah, there's, there's, there's a lot with,

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uh, with violating trust. Yeah. And there's the

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whole sabotage, or backstabbing, or gossiping.

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And that's a big part, I think, of the betrayal.

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But then there's also that passive betrayal,

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where maybe someone didn't stick up for you,

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or they let a rumor go around you, or whatever

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it is. So it's kind of like that really intentional

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betrayal. And then sometimes it's just when someone

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doesn't have your back, or doesn't stand up for

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you in the workforce. And I don't know exactly

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where you want to go with this, but I through

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like sitting down and I had, I was gonna initially

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come with stories because that's like my thing

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as a company is like telling stories. But then

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I was like, we could be here for a long time.

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And I think because of this topic, it's one of

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those topics to me that like a story, why is

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the purpose of me telling that story, right?

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I'm like. To show that I've been betrayed everybody's

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been betrayed right right and I was like okay

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I don't think stories matter and I also just

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to be very Transparent people would probably

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figure out who I'm talking about if I did and

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like that's not the point of this podcast And

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that's not the point of where I am now. I feel

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like the point of where I am is that like I When

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you go through certain things I it's very close

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to my heart now to be what I needed and to give

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my younger self the tools I didn't have to go

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through what I did go through. And it doesn't

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even have to be somebody younger than me. If

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it's somebody that's an executive and they've

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been dealing with this forever, but they've never

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heard this concept before, I was sitting there

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and I was researching it all and I was like,

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okay, how do all these stories align? Where does

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the betrayal come from? What's happening in the

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betrayer? So if you're okay, I have five categories

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that I came up with. And then what I did is I

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broke them down by the behavior that I saw that

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probably could have tipped me off to it earlier,

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but I didn't know it yet. So I have jealousy.

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So to be clear, this is what's in the betrayer,

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what's happening inside the betrayer. So jealousy,

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insecurity, unhealed wounds, scarcity mindset,

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and then the desire for power and validation.

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If you're okay, I want to kind of unpack them

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because I think it's really interesting and it's

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kind of scary and you're probably going to shake

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your head like because you've got, I imagine

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you've gone through many of these, you've been

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in executive roles, you've worked your way up.

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I know that you've been through this. One is

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jealousy. So what this is what they're thinking

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inside, whether or not they're self -aware or

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not, they're thinking, I want to be where you

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are. You remind me of who I could have been.

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You're living out something I abandoned in myself.

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And what that could look like is behavior in

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the workplace. They dismiss your accomplishments.

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They're overly praising you in public, but then

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they avoid you in private. They undermine you

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in group settings to feel superior. And then

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the next one would be insecurity. People like

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her more than me. She's too much. I need to remind

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her of her place. Right. Yeah, that's fair. She

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thinks she's better and I'll show her that she's

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not Right. Yeah, what it looks like subtle digs

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sarcasm jokes that are actually jabs. Yes. Oh,

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yeah Why don't you think it was just a joke?

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Yep. No Copying your ideas without credit. That's

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why I don't know if you've experienced. Oh, yes

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trying to assert dominance or control when you're

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in some type of flow So did it so they throw

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you off? Unhealed wounds everybody buckle up

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We're triggering something in them. That's unhealed.

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Hmm, right. So like you remind me of someone

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who left me It could be childhood bullying That's

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something that's taken so much more time for

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me to like really settle in on is that like if

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I'm triggering you and you're this Upset, it's

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not me that's making you upset, right? Right.

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So if you're pretty or popular or you're smarter

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It might bring them back to childhood and they

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were like this type of person hurt me. There's

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this teenage bully Or there was this person,

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I was on the math team and this other girl was

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always smarter than me. She always, or it even

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could be a sister. It could be competitiveness

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and like childhood, but I'll betray them first

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before, you know, it could be ghosting. It could

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be whatever, scarcity mindset. This one, she

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believes there's only one seat at the table.

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I deal with this a lot as a subcontractor. I

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don't know if you've, I imagine you have with

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your own company. I feel like a lot of females,

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if they're my main point of contact, that's not

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the owner. Cause I feel like once you get to

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the ownership place, you've been beaten up enough

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and you've been humbled enough that I think you

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don't really like hold onto a lot of these things,

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but they still do. And I feel like when we come

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in, I will know from that first meeting if it's

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going to work out or it's not. Cause I'll hear

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things like, well, I've been doing this for five

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years or I've been doing this for 25 years or

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well, I think this idea is better or I think,

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and they undercut you. Interesting. Yeah. Have

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you experienced that? Yeah, and it's funny when

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you were saying that too, it made me think, you

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would think when you're at a certain level, like

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a CEO, right, of big companies, that then you

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would kind of be a better supporter of other

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women. But I certainly ran into, even in the

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restaurant industry, where there were CEO women

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who were older, older than me, who I thought,

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oh, for sure, they're going to be great when

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I reach out. And they just didn't really have

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the time of day for me. And I don't know if this

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is the real reason, but what made sense to me

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was somebody said, because nobody helped them.

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So they don't feel like they need to help other

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people. So sort of like, well, no woman helped

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me. So here, you know, kind of like you have

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to go through what I went through to make it.

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It's like it's like a rebrand of like hazing.

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Yes. And it's like, OK, no, we need to turn the

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tables. Like you didn't like it. You didn't like

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it when you went through it. So why are you turning

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around doing it to me? And I definitely would

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agree with that. I think it's like the older

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woman. And I'm not just strictly coming for that

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generation, the younger generation. I'm coming.

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Right. Right. But like the older it's like that

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mother hen in the office. Right. Which I think

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is. directly related to the scarcity mindset,

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that there can be only one seat at the table.

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There can only be one powerful woman here and

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it has to be me. It's that like mother hen type

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of mindset. And it's like, if she gets the spotlight,

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I'm gonna disappear. I have to win, even if I

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have to destroy her to do it. And it's like,

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no, you don't. but that's coming from you have

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this this mindset and this belief and i've experienced

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this in work somebody will hoard information

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or they'll like withhold resources from you so

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you fail or it takes you 10 times as long or

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oh i forgot to tell you about this right no you

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didn't right you're purposely trying to destroy

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me at a disadvantage and then the last one that

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i have is that desire for power validation right

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very strategic betrayal might not be as emotional

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but it's like you're in my way Right. Of getting

00:11:35.259 --> 00:11:37.480
where I want to go. Yep. They might align with

00:11:37.480 --> 00:11:39.120
somebody who's more powerful than you. They might

00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:41.879
use a relationship. This is one that I've experienced

00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:45.220
is they use my name or my reputation or the relationship

00:11:45.220 --> 00:11:48.440
with me to gain proximity to other people that

00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:50.700
I might be associated to. Interesting. And then

00:11:50.700 --> 00:11:53.059
they cut you out. Okay. So you're totally reused.

00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:55.659
Yeah. So they bait you, right? They bait you.

00:11:55.659 --> 00:11:58.259
That's a good word. They use you to get to where

00:11:58.259 --> 00:12:01.799
they need to go and then they discard you. And

00:12:01.799 --> 00:12:04.159
so I've experienced this and this might be like

00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:06.100
something sucking up to superior speaking out

00:12:06.100 --> 00:12:08.639
on your behalf or someone name dropping. Like,

00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:12.200
unfortunately people will name drop to get into

00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:14.159
a room. I imagine there's people in the restaurant

00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:17.639
industry. Oh, I know Betsy. Yeah. You don't know

00:12:17.639 --> 00:12:19.960
me. You met me one time, you know, and it could

00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:21.679
go one way or the other. They could either use

00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:23.919
it for you or they could use it against you.

00:12:24.100 --> 00:12:27.200
So that's what I found. And I felt like that

00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:29.870
hit almost every single story that I've. And

00:12:29.870 --> 00:12:32.789
it's crazy because I always have to compare what

00:12:32.789 --> 00:12:34.710
happens professionally to what happens when I

00:12:34.710 --> 00:12:36.830
have two teenage daughters, right? And so many

00:12:36.830 --> 00:12:39.049
of those things are starting when they're in

00:12:39.049 --> 00:12:41.370
high school. And it's like, how do you stop that

00:12:41.370 --> 00:12:43.769
now? And I'm very quick to call that stuff out

00:12:43.769 --> 00:12:45.590
to making sure that my girls aren't doing it.

00:12:45.610 --> 00:12:46.970
They're certainly not perfect. But it's like,

00:12:46.970 --> 00:12:49.730
how do you stop that stuff earlier? And is it

00:12:49.730 --> 00:12:51.570
just calling attention to it? Because again,

00:12:51.570 --> 00:12:52.950
it's going to happen to everyone, right? We're

00:12:52.950 --> 00:12:55.110
all going to be betrayed in some time of our

00:12:55.110 --> 00:12:58.549
career. So how do we stop that when it's happening?

00:12:58.759 --> 00:13:01.240
Do we make sure that we're not doing it? Or if

00:13:01.240 --> 00:13:03.639
you're raising daughters or sons, that you're

00:13:03.639 --> 00:13:05.799
teaching your kids the right way to approach

00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:07.639
life, that you're not having them do it to people.

00:13:07.779 --> 00:13:10.039
Well, and I think that's just going back to,

00:13:10.059 --> 00:13:12.480
and I've been the savior way too much in my life,

00:13:12.539 --> 00:13:15.179
and the fixer, and the I'm the one going to therapy,

00:13:15.299 --> 00:13:16.559
and then I'll teach you everything I learned

00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:18.340
from therapy. No, you need to go to therapy,

00:13:18.460 --> 00:13:20.139
too. You know what I mean? I can't just go to

00:13:20.139 --> 00:13:22.440
therapy and then fix everyone. But I think with

00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:25.120
that, you just have to, my first thought when

00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:27.179
you were talking about it is pierce that person's

00:13:27.179 --> 00:13:29.919
heart. in some way. Like I remember if I could

00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:34.019
go back to being a little girl or just even other

00:13:34.019 --> 00:13:38.379
circumstances like you being so healed and healthy

00:13:38.379 --> 00:13:40.320
that you can see that person for what they're

00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:41.980
actually doing instead of seeing them as like

00:13:41.980 --> 00:13:43.779
they're being mean to me or they're being whatever.

00:13:44.240 --> 00:13:46.440
I remember and as a child you don't really have

00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.889
that level of like awareness or the 10 ,000 foot

00:13:49.889 --> 00:13:51.529
view of the situation that's going on. It's like

00:13:51.529 --> 00:13:53.610
when they would say, oh, he's bullying you on

00:13:53.610 --> 00:13:55.570
the playground because he likes you. You know,

00:13:55.570 --> 00:13:57.669
he's pulling your hair because he wants attention

00:13:57.669 --> 00:13:59.710
from you. He thinks you're cute. Imagine like

00:13:59.710 --> 00:14:01.210
if there's people that are genuinely walking

00:14:01.210 --> 00:14:02.889
around on this earth that are still believing

00:14:02.889 --> 00:14:06.029
that as adults, right? So it's, I think as adults,

00:14:06.029 --> 00:14:08.190
we have to like pour into our children and just

00:14:08.190 --> 00:14:11.110
go, this is what this actually means. And like,

00:14:11.470 --> 00:14:14.950
it's so hard to set our pride aside and not want

00:14:14.950 --> 00:14:17.509
to seek revenge on that person, but to just be

00:14:17.509 --> 00:14:22.039
like, Hey, you said this to me and like are you

00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:25.019
okay, right? People don't usually meet people

00:14:25.019 --> 00:14:27.279
with that. They meet with revenge They meet with

00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:28.919
wanting to come back and being like you hurt

00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:30.779
me I'm gonna pay it's an eye for eye like we

00:14:30.779 --> 00:14:32.360
live we live in an eye for an eye culture It's

00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:34.019
like you punched me. I'm gonna punch you back,

00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:36.980
right, but it's like, okay, let's It's harder

00:14:36.980 --> 00:14:39.860
to do the love piece, but I think that's what

00:14:39.860 --> 00:14:41.559
probably would turn this around, because these

00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:44.019
people, they're hurting. They're walking around

00:14:44.019 --> 00:14:45.259
and they're hurting, and that's why they're hurting

00:14:45.259 --> 00:14:47.559
other people. So let's dive into that a little

00:14:47.559 --> 00:14:49.200
bit more, because that's a great point. So when

00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:51.059
it happens, right? Because it happens to everyone.

00:14:51.460 --> 00:14:54.179
How do we handle that? What's the best way where

00:14:54.179 --> 00:14:55.899
you're at work, somebody betrays you, you know

00:14:55.899 --> 00:15:01.799
it. It's obvious. What do we do? Ugh. What have

00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:05.220
I done? Sometimes it's more of what we think

00:15:05.220 --> 00:15:07.220
we should have said or done. Well, I think it's

00:15:07.220 --> 00:15:09.639
hard depending on who it is. If it's somebody

00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:13.259
that's that you are managing, that's going to

00:15:13.259 --> 00:15:15.799
be easier to navigate because they naturally

00:15:15.799 --> 00:15:18.179
are looking at you as a mentor, as a whatever.

00:15:18.299 --> 00:15:20.519
And like, I think it would probably be easier

00:15:20.519 --> 00:15:22.759
to speak into that person because they are naturally

00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:24.940
looking to you for guidance. Yeah. So I could

00:15:24.940 --> 00:15:29.649
picture myself if you had an employee that's

00:15:29.649 --> 00:15:31.549
just giving characteristics or they just appear

00:15:31.549 --> 00:15:33.049
to be insecure, right? Because if you could,

00:15:33.070 --> 00:15:35.509
if you could, it's not like somebody just decides

00:15:35.509 --> 00:15:37.009
in 24 hours that they're going to betray you,

00:15:37.070 --> 00:15:39.710
right? Like these are things that are, they feed

00:15:39.710 --> 00:15:42.190
this envy giant, right? Do you remember that

00:15:42.190 --> 00:15:43.990
Berenstein Bears book that was like the little

00:15:43.990 --> 00:15:46.509
kid turned green? Do you remember that book?

00:15:46.730 --> 00:15:48.009
Yeah. So I just, I don't know why I just thought

00:15:48.009 --> 00:15:49.669
about that, but it's like they literally, the

00:15:49.669 --> 00:15:51.950
one bear turned green and it's like, she fed

00:15:51.950 --> 00:15:55.049
this little envy green monster. And it's so true

00:15:55.049 --> 00:15:56.789
that like, if you sit there and you feed that,

00:15:56.809 --> 00:15:58.250
you're going to create this narrative at work.

00:15:58.350 --> 00:16:01.870
That's like, she, she sent me that email because

00:16:01.870 --> 00:16:04.049
she hates me. Right. And like, you just keep

00:16:04.049 --> 00:16:05.809
creating this narrative. So it does, it's not

00:16:05.809 --> 00:16:08.470
like a 24 hour thing. So I think if you see that

00:16:08.470 --> 00:16:12.769
somebody's like doing some of these behaviors,

00:16:13.490 --> 00:16:15.250
you're like, Hey, that's our job as leaders.

00:16:15.250 --> 00:16:18.649
Right. to be like, Hey, you okay? Yeah. What's

00:16:18.649 --> 00:16:21.049
going on? How can I help you? What can I do?

00:16:21.149 --> 00:16:23.110
You know, and like share that love with them.

00:16:23.250 --> 00:16:27.789
Now, if it's above you, that's the part that

00:16:27.789 --> 00:16:29.750
I don't know that there's very much that you

00:16:29.750 --> 00:16:32.029
can do about that because I am a major proponent

00:16:32.029 --> 00:16:34.070
of I have done the wrong thing many times that

00:16:34.070 --> 00:16:37.330
I tried to fix that person. I remember in past

00:16:37.330 --> 00:16:38.769
roles, I would try to meet with them. I would

00:16:38.769 --> 00:16:40.750
try to be nice to them. I would try to, and I

00:16:40.750 --> 00:16:43.610
think that when it's like the authority figure,

00:16:43.980 --> 00:16:46.559
is the one that's trying to betray you. I had

00:16:46.559 --> 00:16:49.460
a, I will tell a story since we're here. I worked

00:16:49.460 --> 00:16:51.139
at a company. I'm not going to be specific. So

00:16:51.139 --> 00:16:52.799
it'd be very obvious as to who it was, but I

00:16:52.799 --> 00:16:54.679
worked at a company that I had a female boss.

00:16:54.820 --> 00:16:56.419
I had a male boss and then pivoted into a female

00:16:56.419 --> 00:17:01.059
boss. And I very quickly started going up the

00:17:01.059 --> 00:17:03.879
ranks. And I knew that this woman, because she

00:17:03.879 --> 00:17:07.480
just, she was very like, it's so funny that she

00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.259
gave the perception of being very female, supporting

00:17:11.259 --> 00:17:13.160
whatever it's like, but she would take a woman

00:17:13.160 --> 00:17:16.099
out as quickly as she could. Right. And I knew

00:17:16.099 --> 00:17:18.079
that she had like just had a baby and she had

00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:19.559
communicated with us and the team that she was

00:17:19.559 --> 00:17:20.940
struggling with her body and she was struggling,

00:17:21.000 --> 00:17:21.940
you know, she had all these different things

00:17:21.940 --> 00:17:24.200
going on. She was, because she went on maternity

00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:27.839
leave, you know, she wasn't doing as well with

00:17:27.839 --> 00:17:29.799
her commissions. And like there was, I knew she

00:17:29.799 --> 00:17:31.279
just wasn't in a good place. Right. She wasn't

00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:33.140
in a good place. But me being the person that

00:17:33.140 --> 00:17:35.299
reported to her, what am I supposed to do with

00:17:35.299 --> 00:17:37.920
that? Right. Right. But then me, because I'm

00:17:37.920 --> 00:17:39.599
not the one having the baby. I'm not the one

00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:41.460
doing it. And I'm young. I'm like, well, 15 years

00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:44.859
younger than her, right? So my commission's still

00:17:44.859 --> 00:17:48.640
going up. I'm doing work. And then I just became

00:17:48.640 --> 00:17:52.480
the target. And what are you going to do in that

00:17:52.480 --> 00:17:53.779
situation? What are you going to do? I can't

00:17:53.779 --> 00:17:57.359
remove my boss. And unfortunately, HR teams,

00:17:57.519 --> 00:18:01.160
sorry. They're not necessarily there for the

00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:02.779
employees. They're there to protect the company.

00:18:03.180 --> 00:18:06.670
And if you're a good HR person, great. But I

00:18:06.670 --> 00:18:08.230
just, that's been my experience. I just think

00:18:08.230 --> 00:18:09.329
they're there to protect the company. So what

00:18:09.329 --> 00:18:11.029
do you need to do? Go to HR? I did go to HR.

00:18:12.650 --> 00:18:14.950
Yeah, that's hard. The only other option is really

00:18:14.950 --> 00:18:16.829
is if depending on like the structure of the

00:18:16.829 --> 00:18:18.769
company if there was somebody like at that level

00:18:18.769 --> 00:18:20.849
or above you that you could have kind of just

00:18:20.849 --> 00:18:22.549
created a relationship from like a sponsorship

00:18:22.549 --> 00:18:24.769
standpoint like where you had somebody who was

00:18:24.769 --> 00:18:26.829
sort of had your back or was gonna stick up for

00:18:26.829 --> 00:18:29.910
you like if in you know certain meetings or conversations

00:18:29.910 --> 00:18:32.250
where your boss didn't. Or just get a new manager.

00:18:32.349 --> 00:18:33.470
Try to figure out how you can get a new manager.

00:18:33.470 --> 00:18:35.170
Yeah, and that's hard. Yeah, it's hard to do

00:18:35.170 --> 00:18:38.190
if you're at a small company like if it's the

00:18:38.190 --> 00:18:40.549
owner. you're out of luck right you gotta go

00:18:40.549 --> 00:18:42.430
somewhere else time to move on yeah but like

00:18:42.430 --> 00:18:44.930
yeah i think like an advocate would be good finding

00:18:44.930 --> 00:18:46.890
a buddy i think would be smart somebody that

00:18:46.890 --> 00:18:49.450
knows that what's going on because guys it can

00:18:49.450 --> 00:18:51.549
turn into like depending on this person's heart

00:18:51.549 --> 00:18:53.569
it can turn into a very scary situation very

00:18:53.569 --> 00:18:56.829
quickly like there's people that can go in management

00:18:56.829 --> 00:18:59.990
left unchecked and it can turn into retaliation,

00:19:00.210 --> 00:19:02.269
it can turn into revenge, it can turn, it can

00:19:02.269 --> 00:19:05.089
really mess up your career, right? And so you

00:19:05.089 --> 00:19:06.869
def, I think that's great advice, finding if

00:19:06.869 --> 00:19:08.809
you're younger in the office and somebody of

00:19:08.809 --> 00:19:09.990
authority is doing this to you, find somebody

00:19:09.990 --> 00:19:11.650
else who's also of authority that maybe you could

00:19:11.650 --> 00:19:13.470
talk to, you can listen to. And it doesn't mean

00:19:13.470 --> 00:19:15.349
you go tell on them. No, it's not, you're not

00:19:15.349 --> 00:19:18.569
telling, you're trying to go like, hey, I've

00:19:18.569 --> 00:19:21.410
noticed something and I can't do my best work

00:19:21.410 --> 00:19:24.250
in the circumstances that I'm in. And a true

00:19:24.250 --> 00:19:26.190
company and a true leader would hear that and

00:19:26.190 --> 00:19:29.609
go, Understood. My job as a leader here is to

00:19:29.609 --> 00:19:31.470
make sure that I remove every obstacle for you

00:19:31.470 --> 00:19:33.450
to be able to do your job well. Right. That's

00:19:33.450 --> 00:19:36.190
my job. So if that person then doesn't do anything

00:19:36.190 --> 00:19:38.230
about it or help you, unfortunately, you need

00:19:38.230 --> 00:19:41.190
to face that harsh reality of, okay, I probably

00:19:41.190 --> 00:19:43.329
don't need to be here anymore. Right. Yeah, because

00:19:43.329 --> 00:19:44.950
you can only try to build so much credibility

00:19:44.950 --> 00:19:47.109
and trust and respect with others. I mean, I

00:19:47.109 --> 00:19:48.089
definitely was in that situation where I was

00:19:48.089 --> 00:19:49.710
like, OK, let me figure out how I can have other

00:19:49.710 --> 00:19:51.910
key relationships with people who are respected.

00:19:52.109 --> 00:19:54.490
That I can build my credibility and my trust,

00:19:54.509 --> 00:19:56.769
and they'll respect me. That then when I am getting

00:19:56.769 --> 00:19:59.089
thrown under the bus, it's like, wait, no, I

00:19:59.089 --> 00:20:00.910
haven't seen that. I think she's great. Just

00:20:00.910 --> 00:20:03.150
having other people who have your back, I think,

00:20:03.670 --> 00:20:06.430
is really the only other way around it too. And

00:20:06.430 --> 00:20:07.950
you think, by the way, you think she's great

00:20:07.950 --> 00:20:10.930
because she doesn't see you as a threat. That's

00:20:10.930 --> 00:20:12.670
why she thinks you're great, and that's why you're

00:20:12.670 --> 00:20:13.380
great. you've been treated well because she didn't

00:20:13.380 --> 00:20:15.640
see you as a threat. And it's just sad, like

00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.000
even in my recruiting experience, how many times

00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:20.400
I would hear, I would get the calls from, you

00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.480
know, mostly women, which I would be curious

00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:24.380
if men, you know, and if people comment on this.

00:20:24.500 --> 00:20:26.220
I'd be curious if men experience this the way

00:20:26.220 --> 00:20:27.799
women do. I don't think they do. Maybe that's

00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:29.400
where we can go. According to the research, because

00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:31.099
I was curious about that. I didn't do any of

00:20:31.099 --> 00:20:32.559
that research. I was hoping you did. Yeah, because

00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:34.519
I just, I remember back recruiting and it would

00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:36.880
be these women that were just like, it's the,

00:20:36.900 --> 00:20:40.619
you know. The it would be the especially essential

00:20:40.619 --> 00:20:42.200
PA my gosh You would have like a husband and

00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:44.200
wife duo running the company and it's like, okay

00:20:44.200 --> 00:20:46.619
If the only place for you to go next would be

00:20:46.619 --> 00:20:50.700
the wife's job Yeah, she's you know, yeah, what

00:20:50.700 --> 00:20:52.799
do you do? So let's yeah, let's go There's a

00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:54.700
little bit of information about like the gender

00:20:54.700 --> 00:20:57.339
dynamics and it was that women not that men don't

00:20:57.339 --> 00:20:59.039
do this at all certainly not the case but women

00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:01.579
do it more and they do it because We tend to

00:21:01.579 --> 00:21:03.980
be more insecure more jealous more confidence

00:21:03.980 --> 00:21:06.769
issues. So we just have that drive, essentially,

00:21:07.670 --> 00:21:09.430
to do it more often. And then the other piece,

00:21:09.470 --> 00:21:11.930
which totally makes sense, is that if a man would

00:21:11.930 --> 00:21:13.569
do that to another man, they're more likely to

00:21:13.569 --> 00:21:15.289
confront the person and call them out and be

00:21:15.289 --> 00:21:17.809
like, dude, what the hell are you doing? So it

00:21:17.809 --> 00:21:19.609
kind of like shuts down that behavior. So it's

00:21:19.609 --> 00:21:21.630
like we almost have the quote reasons or the

00:21:21.630 --> 00:21:24.589
drive to do it more often. And then when guys

00:21:24.589 --> 00:21:27.089
do do it, they call it out versus women. Maybe

00:21:27.089 --> 00:21:30.170
we just cower. We're just, yeah. I wonder if

00:21:30.170 --> 00:21:33.589
it's primal. Like as you were sitting there and

00:21:33.589 --> 00:21:35.190
saying that, I'm wondering if it's primal, because

00:21:35.190 --> 00:21:36.589
I think that's just where everything goes back.

00:21:36.710 --> 00:21:38.490
It's just like how we're wild as humans, right?

00:21:38.490 --> 00:21:40.130
If you think about like the masculine and the

00:21:40.130 --> 00:21:42.230
feminine, right? Like if we go back to when we

00:21:42.230 --> 00:21:45.170
were like beginning of times, not saying this

00:21:45.170 --> 00:21:46.369
is how it's supposed to be, I want to be clear,

00:21:46.470 --> 00:21:48.150
this is cut the wrong way, it's not what I'm

00:21:48.150 --> 00:21:49.990
saying. But at the beginning of times, right,

00:21:50.109 --> 00:21:52.690
men are biologically created to be protectors,

00:21:52.890 --> 00:21:56.980
providers, and whatever. Women are meant to be

00:21:56.980 --> 00:21:58.920
having babies, hunters and gatherers, taking

00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:00.319
care of the kids and family, things like that

00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:02.220
at home. Like my therapist always says there's

00:22:02.220 --> 00:22:03.740
a healthy amount of jealousy because it keeps

00:22:03.740 --> 00:22:06.519
the family together, right? From a male perspective,

00:22:06.660 --> 00:22:08.099
you must stay away from my woman, stay away from

00:22:08.099 --> 00:22:09.500
my man, right? It keeps the family, but then

00:22:09.500 --> 00:22:12.160
there's like the next level. So I'm almost wondering

00:22:12.160 --> 00:22:14.700
if it's because women have now been in the workforce

00:22:14.700 --> 00:22:18.259
for however long that they've been in, that that

00:22:18.259 --> 00:22:22.000
dynamic is something very, it's more challenging.

00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:24.480
for them yeah right because if we were like in

00:22:24.480 --> 00:22:26.640
our little teepees or our little huts or our

00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:28.200
little you know whatever it is in our little

00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:31.500
tribes we would have men that are only working

00:22:31.500 --> 00:22:33.180
with men and you would have the women that's

00:22:33.180 --> 00:22:34.839
only working with women but the fact that we've

00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:37.299
like coexisted these men and these women i think

00:22:37.299 --> 00:22:42.059
like women want to Biologically, I believe this.

00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:44.680
I think they want to submit to men, and I think

00:22:44.680 --> 00:22:47.420
they want men to take over and lead, and they

00:22:47.420 --> 00:22:50.119
want to go, but I think women, because we're

00:22:50.119 --> 00:22:53.319
biologically created to be with one person over

00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:55.779
a significant period of time, I think this workplace

00:22:55.779 --> 00:22:59.400
thing is messing with us. I don't know, I never

00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:00.279
thought about it that way. I'm not a scientist,

00:23:00.619 --> 00:23:02.740
but as I was sitting there, I'm literally picturing

00:23:02.740 --> 00:23:05.900
in my mind all these little... And from a safety

00:23:05.900 --> 00:23:09.099
perspective, it's not safe to have a new female

00:23:09.099 --> 00:23:11.019
come in. Right. Have you ever worked on a team

00:23:11.019 --> 00:23:16.119
of all women? Right now. Right now. Right now,

00:23:16.220 --> 00:23:18.900
minus my dad, yes. Let me think. I don't think

00:23:18.900 --> 00:23:21.180
that I have. I've worked very male -dominated

00:23:21.180 --> 00:23:23.500
roles. I'm trying to think. Only right now. OK.

00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:26.079
And do you notice, well, especially if you've

00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:27.039
dealt... You can ask me the hard questions. Well,

00:23:27.059 --> 00:23:27.960
no, I was going to say if you've dealt a lot,

00:23:28.119 --> 00:23:30.599
especially in men, what's the difference of being

00:23:30.599 --> 00:23:33.960
in a group of women? Versus like when you work

00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:36.539
with mostly men. So here's would be my perspective

00:23:36.539 --> 00:23:39.039
because I and I joke about this all the time

00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:40.859
I didn't purposely hire all women. It just kind

00:23:40.859 --> 00:23:42.740
of is the way that yeah Yeah, like, you know,

00:23:42.740 --> 00:23:44.519
and I think marketing naturally is gravity. Yes

00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:47.180
towards females totally But I had a team of like

00:23:47.180 --> 00:23:49.839
nine women. I was like eight or nine I don't

00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:53.279
remember how we had but it was a lot and I really

00:23:53.500 --> 00:23:57.460
I made sure as a female leader, knowing what

00:23:57.460 --> 00:23:59.960
are the very real realities of having a group

00:23:59.960 --> 00:24:02.619
of females work together, I specifically did

00:24:02.619 --> 00:24:05.420
things to make sure that we bonded, we didn't

00:24:05.420 --> 00:24:07.740
see each other as threats. We have so much power

00:24:07.740 --> 00:24:09.579
as leaders to prevent things like this happening

00:24:09.579 --> 00:24:12.119
in the workplace. One major thing, and you've

00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:14.019
probably experienced this before, a new person

00:24:14.019 --> 00:24:17.210
just gets hired. Management doesn't tell you

00:24:17.210 --> 00:24:18.990
why they've been hired, what their role is, what

00:24:18.990 --> 00:24:20.430
they're supposed to be doing. And maybe they're

00:24:20.430 --> 00:24:21.750
doing something a little bit like what you're

00:24:21.750 --> 00:24:23.450
doing, right? Picture like you being in your

00:24:23.450 --> 00:24:26.329
younger career. You're in social media and marketing.

00:24:26.809 --> 00:24:29.250
They just hired Janelle, and now she's in social

00:24:29.250 --> 00:24:31.650
media marketing too. What would you think, probably?

00:24:31.930 --> 00:24:33.230
No one's told you why she was hired. Oh yeah,

00:24:33.230 --> 00:24:34.890
I've heard that happen. Yeah, and what did you

00:24:34.890 --> 00:24:36.630
think? You're like, oh, they're done with me.

00:24:36.630 --> 00:24:38.609
They want me out. Exactly, right? When really,

00:24:38.710 --> 00:24:40.269
if leadership actually got ahead of it, it was

00:24:40.269 --> 00:24:41.990
just like, hey, Betsy, I just want to let you

00:24:41.990 --> 00:24:43.490
know, we're killing it in this department. You're

00:24:43.490 --> 00:24:45.910
absolutely, but we're noticing that. You got

00:24:45.910 --> 00:24:48.470
a lot of work on your plate. So we actually we're

00:24:48.470 --> 00:24:50.309
gonna go ahead We're gonna hire somebody else.

00:24:50.410 --> 00:24:51.829
She's gonna be in charge of this You're gonna

00:24:51.829 --> 00:24:53.190
be in charge of that and we need you guys to

00:24:53.190 --> 00:24:54.750
work together as a team because we want you to

00:24:54.750 --> 00:24:57.130
work Well together long term and we see a lot

00:24:57.130 --> 00:24:58.769
of opportunity for growth and even adding more

00:24:58.769 --> 00:25:00.410
members in the future Wouldn't that probably

00:25:00.410 --> 00:25:02.450
taking you off your right? It comes under but

00:25:02.450 --> 00:25:05.490
they don't do that, right? So I think these whether

00:25:05.490 --> 00:25:07.950
it's a male leader a female leader They're not

00:25:07.950 --> 00:25:10.829
taking the primal or whatever the very real realities

00:25:10.829 --> 00:25:14.819
of how women work and catering to it. Yeah Because

00:25:14.819 --> 00:25:16.259
if someone said that to you, you probably would

00:25:16.259 --> 00:25:17.880
have felt a lot better. That's fair. People have

00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:19.700
done that to me. Right. And it does. It makes

00:25:19.700 --> 00:25:23.059
you think like, are they... We fill the gray

00:25:23.059 --> 00:25:25.220
area. We're like... Is that because I'm not doing

00:25:25.220 --> 00:25:27.200
my job well? Sure. Is she coming in and then

00:25:27.200 --> 00:25:28.579
you're going to get rid of me? Is she replacing

00:25:28.579 --> 00:25:30.019
me? There's all these da -da -da -da -da -da

00:25:30.019 --> 00:25:31.599
what ifs. It's from a place of safety. Women

00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:33.839
are constantly scanning if we're safe. That's

00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:35.940
a moment you're not safe. No, that's true. And

00:25:35.940 --> 00:25:38.519
that kind of all goes back to, I don't want to

00:25:38.519 --> 00:25:39.900
say the root of the issue because we're the root

00:25:39.900 --> 00:25:42.420
of the issue, but it goes back to the culture

00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:44.740
and the leadership and what's tolerated because

00:25:44.740 --> 00:25:47.480
I've certainly been in corporate situations where

00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:50.160
bad behavior was tolerated. So if you were betraying

00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:52.619
somebody, if you didn't communicate that they're

00:25:52.619 --> 00:25:54.599
hiring just to to expand the department, not

00:25:54.599 --> 00:25:57.799
to take you out, it came back to the culture

00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:00.019
and that kind of stuff being allowed to happen

00:26:00.019 --> 00:26:02.400
where communication was shitty or the leadership

00:26:02.400 --> 00:26:04.420
was shitty and people treated each other like

00:26:04.420 --> 00:26:06.359
crap and it was just kind of people looked the

00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:08.599
other way or didn't act like it happened. And

00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:11.259
that's what tears down organizations. That what

00:26:11.259 --> 00:26:12.660
makes you not productive. That makes the good

00:26:12.660 --> 00:26:15.380
people leave, right? Because if you are... good

00:26:15.380 --> 00:26:17.259
quality respected person you're gonna be like

00:26:17.259 --> 00:26:19.940
okay forget this like this is not worth my pain

00:26:19.940 --> 00:26:21.960
and suffering i'm out so i mean that literally

00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:24.500
tears down organizations and it gets rid of the

00:26:24.500 --> 00:26:27.119
good people so it goes back to establishing that

00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:29.700
from the very top and at every level and holding

00:26:29.700 --> 00:26:31.799
people accountable there's there's going to be

00:26:31.799 --> 00:26:34.200
bad behavior but it has to be addressed and if

00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:37.660
it's tolerated then there's probably that opportunity

00:26:37.660 --> 00:26:40.319
to look for another job, if you can. Yeah. And

00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:42.700
I think, too, just as you were talking, I remember

00:26:42.700 --> 00:26:44.319
hearing something the other day. It was just

00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:48.619
about how, like, as a man, the video was like,

00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:50.940
as a man, you can't be scared of your wife's

00:26:50.940 --> 00:26:52.819
emotions. But I think you could take the exact

00:26:52.819 --> 00:26:54.700
same thing and put it into the workplace. As

00:26:54.700 --> 00:26:58.440
a male leader, you can't be afraid or avoidant

00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:02.480
of the female period. or her emotions, or how

00:27:02.480 --> 00:27:04.240
she handles things, or how she navigates things.

00:27:04.420 --> 00:27:06.920
If you seriously, you either have daughters,

00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:10.359
you have a wife, you know what they do. Are you

00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:12.299
kidding me? You know what they do. You know what

00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:14.660
an insecure wife does. She makes your life a

00:27:14.660 --> 00:27:18.839
living hell. It's right? Literally, men are the,

00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:21.160
what is it? They say that women are the temperature

00:27:21.160 --> 00:27:23.579
and then men are the thermostat. I think that's

00:27:23.579 --> 00:27:24.839
something what it is. So like if it's hot in

00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:27.539
here. What do you got going on brother? That's

00:27:27.539 --> 00:27:30.539
like making it this way So I really would say

00:27:30.539 --> 00:27:32.180
and I'm just saying because we're in central

00:27:32.180 --> 00:27:34.480
PA and typically men are in those higher authority

00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:37.759
issues You cannot be scared of the female and

00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:40.039
the female emotions like you need to be able

00:27:40.039 --> 00:27:42.460
to hit those head -on address them Accountability

00:27:42.460 --> 00:27:44.759
and go no, we're not playing this game, right?

00:27:45.000 --> 00:27:48.059
Right, but be when you're scared of it. You avoid

00:27:48.059 --> 00:27:50.880
it. You let it go unchecked and then it just

00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:52.900
yeah And like you're saying, it creates this

00:27:52.900 --> 00:27:55.380
toxic work environment. Like it's just, it's

00:27:55.380 --> 00:27:57.119
really, it's really, really sad. And I think

00:27:57.119 --> 00:27:58.980
the same thing would happen for women who don't

00:27:58.980 --> 00:28:00.440
want to address male behaviors. But obviously

00:28:00.440 --> 00:28:02.640
we're just talking about, you know, women. But

00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:04.460
I think that's a very real thing too, is I think

00:28:04.460 --> 00:28:06.660
there's a lot of men that are very scared of

00:28:06.660 --> 00:28:09.559
women and working with women and the way we are

00:28:09.559 --> 00:28:11.839
emotionally that they're like. Husbands do that.

00:28:11.980 --> 00:28:13.920
Sure. Oh, yeah. Boyfriends do that. Brothers

00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:15.480
and sisters do that. They're like, I don't want

00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:17.220
to deal with it. I'm not like that. And that's

00:28:17.220 --> 00:28:18.880
great. I wish we were a little less emotional

00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:21.380
maybe sometimes. But yeah, they have to be able

00:28:21.380 --> 00:28:23.680
to deal with it and address it. And they don't.

00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:25.700
And I think that's why this type of stuff is

00:28:25.700 --> 00:28:28.940
so rampant. And you can't be afraid of, it's

00:28:28.940 --> 00:28:31.299
like they're so fearful of, and I've seen it

00:28:31.299 --> 00:28:33.599
with my employees with where they worked before

00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:35.400
and they've told me or even things that I've

00:28:35.400 --> 00:28:39.390
experienced. There's like, There's mother hens

00:28:39.390 --> 00:28:41.930
at those work environments that ruined it for

00:28:41.930 --> 00:28:44.769
a players, right? Because they have this threat

00:28:44.769 --> 00:28:48.069
of there can only be one right your whole organization

00:28:48.069 --> 00:28:50.930
should be filled with Incredible male female

00:28:50.930 --> 00:28:53.690
this that you all demographics But if you have

00:28:53.690 --> 00:28:55.509
these people that are just so insecure and it's

00:28:55.509 --> 00:28:57.029
everything's mine and it's a horde horde horde

00:28:57.029 --> 00:29:00.099
horde Okay, then you will have that company It'll

00:29:00.099 --> 00:29:01.819
just be that person and whoever that person doesn't

00:29:01.819 --> 00:29:03.319
see is a threat. So that's gonna be employees

00:29:03.319 --> 00:29:06.799
that suck They're miserable don't have good personalities.

00:29:06.799 --> 00:29:08.200
They're not attractive like right You're gonna

00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:10.480
have an employee a group of losers working for

00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:14.140
you because Jen from wherever hates everybody

00:29:14.140 --> 00:29:18.069
sure. Oh totally No, it's frustrating. So if

00:29:18.069 --> 00:29:19.849
we try to leave this on a positive note, right?

00:29:20.869 --> 00:29:22.950
And again, we're all going to face this. We've

00:29:22.950 --> 00:29:24.109
all faced this. I'm sure everybody listening

00:29:24.109 --> 00:29:26.329
to this has had this happen. It's going to happen

00:29:26.329 --> 00:29:29.890
in the future, right? So how do we continue to

00:29:29.890 --> 00:29:32.009
move forward? And we're not going to fix the

00:29:32.009 --> 00:29:35.009
insecurity, jealousy issues that mostly women

00:29:35.009 --> 00:29:37.230
have that they do this. So what do we do ourselves

00:29:37.230 --> 00:29:39.839
to be able to? deal with betrayal when it does

00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:42.019
happen or maybe avoid it i don't know sometimes

00:29:42.019 --> 00:29:44.920
maybe it's avoidable yeah i would say so how

00:29:44.920 --> 00:29:48.660
i deal how i would deal with it right now i'm

00:29:48.660 --> 00:29:51.500
currently experiencing significant betrayal i've

00:29:51.500 --> 00:29:53.859
experienced significant betrayals my entire career

00:29:53.859 --> 00:29:56.119
and i've got to say guys like you're gonna get

00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:59.460
that temptation to want to seek revenge and come

00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:01.460
after them and be like that's not the truth let

00:30:01.460 --> 00:30:03.500
me tell you what really happened it doesn't matter

00:30:03.500 --> 00:30:07.259
it literally doesn't matter does not matter and

00:30:07.259 --> 00:30:09.720
I know that that temptation is there to speak

00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:12.019
your truth and say what really happened and tell

00:30:12.019 --> 00:30:14.500
people this and get it like Roll over I almost

00:30:14.500 --> 00:30:16.839
picture it is like if there's like drama It's

00:30:16.839 --> 00:30:18.740
like a pig rolling around in mud, right? And

00:30:18.740 --> 00:30:20.539
then there's another pig that walks over and

00:30:20.539 --> 00:30:22.519
is like I'm gonna roll around with you And it's

00:30:22.519 --> 00:30:23.799
like you're just the kind of like you if you

00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:25.059
want to be a little pig, too You can whatever

00:30:25.059 --> 00:30:26.359
and you're sitting on the outside and you're

00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:28.619
looking at these people rolling in mud and you

00:30:28.619 --> 00:30:30.619
do you have a choice of whether or not you want

00:30:30.619 --> 00:30:33.279
to roll around the mud and What I would advise

00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:36.900
is it's tempting It would feel good. Your body

00:30:36.900 --> 00:30:39.240
thinks it would feel good, but it's not going

00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:41.420
to benefit you professionally, personally, or

00:30:41.420 --> 00:30:43.680
anything at all. Now, as a leader, what I would

00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:47.279
advise is stop ignoring the very true and real

00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:50.980
things about human behavior. If you want to be

00:30:50.980 --> 00:30:53.440
in leadership, you need to understand not just

00:30:53.440 --> 00:30:56.380
the management, the things that we need to accomplish

00:30:56.380 --> 00:30:58.740
on a timeline. You also need to recognize that

00:30:58.740 --> 00:31:01.279
you are managing and you're leading people. And

00:31:01.279 --> 00:31:03.940
they have pros, they have cons, they have flaws,

00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:06.680
they are envious, they are jealous, they are

00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:07.960
happy, they are sad, there are all these different

00:31:07.960 --> 00:31:10.900
things. And you need to manage people as the

00:31:10.900 --> 00:31:13.400
whole person, not just act like this whole other

00:31:13.400 --> 00:31:16.140
thing isn't existing. Your job as a leader is

00:31:16.140 --> 00:31:18.119
to protect your organization, lead your people,

00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:20.240
have them be excited and happy about what they're

00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:22.339
doing. And if you allow behaviors like this to

00:31:22.339 --> 00:31:25.700
happen, you're not doing your job. So that's

00:31:25.700 --> 00:31:28.059
how I would respond. What about you? No, I agree

00:31:28.059 --> 00:31:29.980
with everything you said. And I think, again,

00:31:29.980 --> 00:31:31.839
it's kind of that balance of identifying when

00:31:31.839 --> 00:31:33.779
it happens and figuring out how you can move

00:31:33.779 --> 00:31:35.819
past it. And it's probably not rebuilding the

00:31:35.819 --> 00:31:37.740
relationship with that person. But you've got

00:31:37.740 --> 00:31:39.480
to protect your peace. You've got to set boundaries.

00:31:40.039 --> 00:31:41.980
So making sure you're doing that and continuing

00:31:41.980 --> 00:31:43.980
to move forward. And then, to your point, don't

00:31:43.980 --> 00:31:47.240
seek revenge. That just becomes the spiral. But

00:31:47.240 --> 00:31:49.839
you've got to figure out how you can hold others

00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:51.960
accountable, too, even if it's peers or people

00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:54.500
below you. And it's being in that environment.

00:31:54.660 --> 00:31:57.119
And if it's the environment issue, if you're

00:31:57.119 --> 00:31:59.579
at a business or a company that that's tolerated,

00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:00.960
then I think that's when you really do have to

00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:02.480
take a hard look at, do I really want to be here?

00:32:02.539 --> 00:32:04.559
Do I want to be part of this if bad behavior

00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:07.099
is consistently tolerated at your organization?

00:32:07.500 --> 00:32:09.259
Yeah, tolerated. That's so good. And I had one

00:32:09.259 --> 00:32:12.119
more thing that I wanted to make sure is advice,

00:32:12.160 --> 00:32:15.240
I guess, that I would give is that most betrayal

00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:18.339
isn't about you. It's about them not knowing

00:32:18.339 --> 00:32:20.759
what to do with themselves in the presence of

00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.559
you. Ooh, that's really good. You know what I

00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:25.180
mean? Yeah, because it really is never about

00:32:25.180 --> 00:32:27.099
you. It's not about you. It's that person's problem,

00:32:27.140 --> 00:32:29.400
not your problem. There's something about you

00:32:29.400 --> 00:32:32.440
that is making them very uncomfortable with themselves.

00:32:33.900 --> 00:32:36.059
And the earlier and when you're young in your

00:32:36.059 --> 00:32:38.900
career, you don't know that yet. You just are

00:32:38.900 --> 00:32:40.700
like, do you hate me? Do you not like me? Like,

00:32:40.700 --> 00:32:42.279
what? Why are you treating me this way? Especially

00:32:42.279 --> 00:32:43.839
when it's your first job. I mean, my gosh, you

00:32:43.839 --> 00:32:46.039
have no previous experience. And there's so many

00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:47.819
toxic work environments. But the quicker that

00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:49.420
you can realize that this doesn't have anything

00:32:49.420 --> 00:32:52.200
to do with you, And it's that person, which is

00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:55.640
so, so hard. Trust me, it is hard. I think you'll

00:32:55.640 --> 00:32:57.859
navigate it better in the future. Love that.

00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:00.279
Good. Thank you. Thank you so much for being

00:33:00.279 --> 00:33:01.539
part of Loud and Lifted. And thanks for hosting

00:33:01.539 --> 00:33:04.140
us in your podcast studio. And people want to

00:33:04.140 --> 00:33:05.839
find out more information on you and Cray. Where

00:33:05.839 --> 00:33:08.000
can they find you? I would say find me on LinkedIn.

00:33:08.279 --> 00:33:12.000
Kristin Ray Pucci, R -A -E -P -U -C -C -I. Kristin

00:33:12.000 --> 00:33:13.920
Ray Pucci on LinkedIn. Connect with me there,

00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:15.220
and that'll take you to everywhere else you need

00:33:15.220 --> 00:33:17.119
to go. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you.

00:33:17.259 --> 00:33:19.579
Thanks. Thank you so much to Kristen for not

00:33:19.579 --> 00:33:21.799
only hosting us at her studio but for showing

00:33:21.799 --> 00:33:24.619
up with honesty Vulnerability and strength and

00:33:24.619 --> 00:33:26.980
for digging into what so many women have experienced

00:33:26.980 --> 00:33:30.339
But we rarely talk about if this episode stirred

00:33:30.339 --> 00:33:32.400
something in you You're not alone the string

00:33:32.400 --> 00:33:34.740
of broken trust is real, but it doesn't define

00:33:34.740 --> 00:33:37.000
your future Whether you're healing rebuilding

00:33:37.000 --> 00:33:39.819
or reflecting on how to show up better for others

00:33:39.819 --> 00:33:43.660
Remember we get to choose who we become so let's

00:33:43.660 --> 00:33:46.210
choose to lift If this conversation resonated

00:33:46.210 --> 00:33:47.650
with you, please share it with another woman

00:33:47.650 --> 00:33:49.670
who needs to hear it. Follow Loud and Lifted

00:33:49.670 --> 00:33:51.509
wherever you get your podcast and leave us a

00:33:51.509 --> 00:33:53.849
review. It helps more women find this community.

00:33:54.470 --> 00:33:57.329
Until next time, stay loud, stay lifted and keep

00:33:57.329 --> 00:33:58.930
showing up fully for yourself.