Your Job Is Not Worth Your Health with Carrie of Hey Work Friend

WEBVTT

00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.960
Welcome to Loud and Lifted. I'm your host, Betsy

00:00:02.960 --> 00:00:05.780
Hamm. Today's episode is with Carrie, also known

00:00:05.780 --> 00:00:08.699
as Haywork Friend, and we are getting into something

00:00:08.699 --> 00:00:11.439
every high achieving woman has probably struggled

00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:14.560
with at some point, boundaries at work. Carrie

00:00:14.560 --> 00:00:17.000
has spent years inside corporate HR, and now

00:00:17.000 --> 00:00:19.519
she's on the other side, helping people understand

00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:21.519
what's really happening behind the scenes at

00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:25.519
work with managers, HR, toxic bosses, coworkers,

00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:28.899
burnout. and all the messy situations we usually

00:00:28.899 --> 00:00:32.280
vent about in the group chat. We talk about why

00:00:32.280 --> 00:00:34.740
boundaries feel so hard, especially for women,

00:00:35.179 --> 00:00:37.719
how to push back without sounding defensive,

00:00:37.979 --> 00:00:40.420
what to say when your boss keeps piling on more

00:00:40.420 --> 00:00:43.740
work, how to handle coworkers who treat you like

00:00:43.740 --> 00:00:47.179
their backup plan, and why ignoring your limits

00:00:47.179 --> 00:00:50.369
can have a real impact on your health. And what

00:00:50.369 --> 00:00:52.469
I love about this conversation is that Carrie

00:00:52.469 --> 00:00:55.969
gives us actual language. Not fluffy, just advocate

00:00:55.969 --> 00:00:58.429
for your self -advice, but scripts, context,

00:00:58.609 --> 00:01:00.869
and practical ways to handle these conversations.

00:01:01.829 --> 00:01:04.510
So if you've ever said yes when you really wanted

00:01:04.510 --> 00:01:08.370
to say no, answered emails way too late, carried

00:01:08.370 --> 00:01:11.129
work that wasn't yours, or wondered whether HR

00:01:11.129 --> 00:01:14.090
is actually the right place to go, this one is

00:01:14.090 --> 00:01:17.840
for you. Welcome to Loud and Lifted. Carrie,

00:01:17.980 --> 00:01:20.959
thank you so much for being here. Thank you for

00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:24.780
having me. Yes. So you're an HR professional

00:01:24.780 --> 00:01:27.840
by trade. You have spent years inside corporate

00:01:27.840 --> 00:01:30.359
HR. You've been part of those meetings, those

00:01:30.359 --> 00:01:34.239
conversations, and now you've pivoted. And you

00:01:34.239 --> 00:01:36.239
are, I would kind of say, on the other side of

00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:39.019
the table because the work that we don't use

00:01:39.019 --> 00:01:41.540
when we talk about our HR professionals, no offense

00:01:41.540 --> 00:01:44.799
to any HR people. friends that are in HR, but

00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:47.700
as a friend, right? Like personally, 100%. But

00:01:47.700 --> 00:01:50.579
professionally, that's not kind of how we explain

00:01:50.579 --> 00:01:53.640
HR people. But here you are as a Haywork friend.

00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:56.260
And now you're going to kind of give us the inside

00:01:56.260 --> 00:01:58.799
scoop of what really happens in a lot of these

00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:02.859
situations. And a lot of your content is around

00:02:02.859 --> 00:02:05.400
boundaries, having boundaries at work with your

00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:07.980
manager, how to respond, a lot of those scripts.

00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:11.120
So we'll get into those, but let's start with

00:02:11.229 --> 00:02:14.610
Why are boundaries so hard for many of us at

00:02:14.610 --> 00:02:18.370
work? Yeah, I mean, the obvious one is that it

00:02:18.370 --> 00:02:24.629
seems really scary. It is scary. I will say I

00:02:24.629 --> 00:02:27.590
know the scripts myself and I can still get scared

00:02:27.590 --> 00:02:31.030
of these kinds of things. But the fear seeming

00:02:31.030 --> 00:02:33.409
difficult. You don't want to disappoint people

00:02:33.409 --> 00:02:36.169
and you want to be seen as as that team player.

00:02:36.509 --> 00:02:41.400
But there's also a ton of other pressures. that

00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:44.780
we feel. One, I mean, high achievers, they often

00:02:44.780 --> 00:02:48.099
think that constant busyness that equates to

00:02:48.099 --> 00:02:51.319
being a valuable employee. And they view rest

00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:54.659
or boundary setting often as a sign of, of laziness.

00:02:55.000 --> 00:02:57.319
I, I, again, myself do that sometimes if I'm

00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:00.599
like resting. And then after I get up, I'm like,

00:03:00.659 --> 00:03:02.340
Oh my God, I can't believe I didn't accomplish

00:03:02.340 --> 00:03:05.639
anything. And then I have guilt and you almost,

00:03:05.639 --> 00:03:10.180
you know, view that as, as a failure. And oftentimes

00:03:10.180 --> 00:03:13.639
high achievers actually do view burnout as a

00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:18.000
personal failure. And I want to actually correct

00:03:18.000 --> 00:03:21.120
that right now for everyone that literally the

00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:24.699
WHO, the World Health Organization has officially

00:03:24.699 --> 00:03:28.259
noted that burnout is officially an occupational

00:03:28.259 --> 00:03:32.699
phenomenon. Oh, it's not you that this is truly

00:03:32.699 --> 00:03:35.159
a workplace issue. So I just want to call that

00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:39.389
out. Interesting. But especially in today's world

00:03:39.389 --> 00:03:42.810
with all of the layoffs that are going on too,

00:03:43.509 --> 00:03:47.090
we're afraid of job loss. And your manager controls

00:03:47.090 --> 00:03:50.669
your livelihood. And you don't want to disappoint

00:03:50.669 --> 00:03:54.169
them for fear that they're gonna terminate you.

00:03:54.729 --> 00:03:57.669
It's such a reality of the times that we're in.

00:03:58.229 --> 00:04:03.150
There's even a nervous system response that is...

00:04:03.159 --> 00:04:05.659
partly to blame for this as well, too. We often

00:04:05.659 --> 00:04:08.360
think of the nervous system if there's a threat,

00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:12.139
there's fight or flight or freeze. Those are

00:04:12.139 --> 00:04:14.520
the ones we talk about. But there's another one,

00:04:14.659 --> 00:04:17.079
another response actually called the fawn response.

00:04:17.220 --> 00:04:20.800
And that is our nervous system reacting to a

00:04:20.800 --> 00:04:25.139
perceived threat. And the intrinsic reaction

00:04:25.139 --> 00:04:28.120
is to try and please and to accommodate the threat.

00:04:28.600 --> 00:04:31.600
Literally, that is your nervous system reacting.

00:04:32.180 --> 00:04:33.899
Interesting. I've never heard of that. And you

00:04:33.899 --> 00:04:35.899
think of fight or flight, but that's kind of

00:04:35.899 --> 00:04:39.480
the extent of it. Right. Yes. No, it's literally

00:04:39.480 --> 00:04:42.620
a nervous system response. So yeah, why are boundaries

00:04:42.620 --> 00:04:46.100
so hard at work? All of those things. It is hard.

00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:50.339
So I mean, and again, hard for me too, right?

00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:54.220
And I, I know all the scripts, but when it comes

00:04:54.220 --> 00:04:58.660
to practice, it is challenging. So in your experience,

00:04:58.899 --> 00:05:01.560
have you seen women struggle with this more than

00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:07.019
men? Yes. And I will say, though, men do struggle

00:05:07.019 --> 00:05:11.279
with this, too. I have had a lot of men in my

00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:16.019
DMs. But the primary grouping of my audience

00:05:16.019 --> 00:05:18.920
are women, and they are constantly talking to

00:05:18.920 --> 00:05:22.740
me about this and their struggles with it. And

00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:26.569
there's so many biases at work. there is something

00:05:26.569 --> 00:05:30.810
called the likability penalty for women. And

00:05:30.810 --> 00:05:35.290
essentially, society, professional cultures socialize

00:05:35.290 --> 00:05:39.709
women to be agreeable, kind, communal. But when

00:05:39.709 --> 00:05:42.790
women assert a boundary or communicate directly,

00:05:43.410 --> 00:05:49.310
then they violate these outdated norms. But they're

00:05:49.310 --> 00:05:52.089
frequently penalized with subjective labels like

00:05:52.089 --> 00:05:55.980
being bossy or difficult. And I think we all

00:05:55.980 --> 00:05:58.800
know that this has been an issue for a long time,

00:05:59.379 --> 00:06:01.439
that men who exhibit the exact same assertive

00:06:01.439 --> 00:06:03.819
behaviors, they're praised as decisive leaders.

00:06:03.980 --> 00:06:07.000
And so I feel like women are always constantly

00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:10.720
walking a tight rope between being respected

00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:14.360
for their competence or being penalized for not

00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:17.079
being accommodating enough. Oh, that's very true.

00:06:17.379 --> 00:06:19.740
And I do think about that. Women always want

00:06:19.740 --> 00:06:22.459
to be generally speaking, you know, supportive

00:06:22.459 --> 00:06:25.579
and helpful. And so we say yes to things and

00:06:25.579 --> 00:06:28.620
take things on because we don't want to let somebody

00:06:28.620 --> 00:06:32.519
down, right? We feel bad and we put our needs

00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:34.959
essentially last because, hey, we're a team player.

00:06:35.060 --> 00:06:37.420
We can do more. And then put ourselves in the

00:06:37.420 --> 00:06:40.199
situations where there are no boundaries. There's

00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:44.160
no pushing back. I feel that myself too. And

00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:46.660
again, I talk about this all the time, but right

00:06:46.660 --> 00:06:49.680
now I'm helping people oftentimes who are in

00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:54.439
crisis about work. And my gosh, it feels like

00:06:54.439 --> 00:06:57.040
I need to be accommodating to be able to meet

00:06:57.040 --> 00:06:59.519
with them to I don't want to leave them hanging.

00:06:59.680 --> 00:07:02.600
But I also have to remind myself to that I have

00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:06.220
to set boundaries or it will literally impact

00:07:06.220 --> 00:07:09.519
my health. Right. But it's hard. Well, and you

00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:11.819
bring up a good point. I think sometimes we think

00:07:11.819 --> 00:07:14.279
there's this perfection of, well, that I'm always

00:07:14.279 --> 00:07:15.939
going to hold my line. I'm always going to have

00:07:15.939 --> 00:07:17.279
pushback. I'm always going to be able to do that.

00:07:17.459 --> 00:07:19.540
Well, guess what? Even people who are good at

00:07:19.540 --> 00:07:21.560
it still have those moments where they're like,

00:07:21.740 --> 00:07:24.120
oh my gosh, I've taken on too much. I shouldn't

00:07:24.120 --> 00:07:26.560
have agreed to this. And it happens, right? No

00:07:26.560 --> 00:07:30.920
one's going to nail this perfectly. being intentional

00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:33.920
about it, getting uncomfortable. And you mentioned

00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:36.860
you have the scripts. You tell other people what

00:07:36.860 --> 00:07:39.779
to say, and then it comes to you doing it. You

00:07:39.779 --> 00:07:41.959
might get nervous. You might get anxiety. It's

00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:45.500
still going to feel, I want to say not feel emotional.

00:07:45.579 --> 00:07:47.459
You're still going to have those emotions when

00:07:47.459 --> 00:07:49.680
you're going through that and you know what you're

00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:51.620
doing. So the more you do it, like everything

00:07:51.620 --> 00:07:53.620
else, you get better, you get more comfortable,

00:07:53.620 --> 00:07:57.860
but it takes practice essentially to do it. And

00:07:57.860 --> 00:08:01.220
again, just to validate people, Two, go back

00:08:01.220 --> 00:08:03.160
to the fawn response, where it is literally a

00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:07.860
part of our nervous system to try to placate

00:08:07.860 --> 00:08:10.500
someone to be agreeable. And you can't help it.

00:08:10.680 --> 00:08:12.819
It is literally your nervous system. Right. You

00:08:12.819 --> 00:08:14.639
cannot fight it. You can learn how to deal with

00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:19.060
it, but you can't fight it or change it. So let's

00:08:19.060 --> 00:08:21.519
get this really practical because probably the

00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:25.019
area where we have to push back the most and

00:08:25.019 --> 00:08:27.649
figure out those boundaries is with our bosses.

00:08:28.949 --> 00:08:32.210
And I see you talk about this a lot. So let's

00:08:32.210 --> 00:08:34.870
talk through some of those situations where you

00:08:34.870 --> 00:08:37.409
need to put that boundary up. And how do we do

00:08:37.409 --> 00:08:39.970
that? You're really great at saying, hey, don't

00:08:39.970 --> 00:08:41.850
say this when this happens. And this is what

00:08:41.850 --> 00:08:44.330
to say. I love that. So what are some of those

00:08:44.330 --> 00:08:46.370
situations that you see and hear a lot of people

00:08:46.370 --> 00:08:48.490
feel like, what do I do? And let's talk through

00:08:48.490 --> 00:08:51.190
one of those. Yeah. I mean, I think it's those

00:08:51.190 --> 00:08:53.669
last minute tasks that come up that you know,

00:08:53.769 --> 00:08:56.470
everyone can relate to where it's the end of

00:08:56.470 --> 00:08:59.690
the day and your manager comes and gives you

00:08:59.690 --> 00:09:03.830
something else or you are already so dang busy

00:09:03.830 --> 00:09:06.070
and you're dying because you've taken too much

00:09:06.070 --> 00:09:07.950
on and your manager comes and asks you to do

00:09:07.950 --> 00:09:09.929
something else. Like those are the kinds of things

00:09:09.929 --> 00:09:12.169
that I think everyone can relate to. And that

00:09:12.169 --> 00:09:17.129
comes up a lot. And I'm a big research person.

00:09:17.269 --> 00:09:19.710
All of my stuff is always research backed because

00:09:19.710 --> 00:09:22.419
I want to make sure that I feel really good about

00:09:22.419 --> 00:09:24.519
what I put out there. And I will say like research

00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:28.419
specifically tells us that the best way to handle

00:09:28.419 --> 00:09:32.200
this is a three -step process. And so the first

00:09:32.200 --> 00:09:35.600
step is to have a positive reaction to it, not

00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:39.019
agreeing, but a positive reaction. Like, oh,

00:09:39.019 --> 00:09:43.379
that's a great project. Or, oh, I would absolutely

00:09:43.379 --> 00:09:46.980
love to having that positive reaction. And I

00:09:46.980 --> 00:09:48.779
know I said absolutely love to, but then you

00:09:48.779 --> 00:09:51.720
say, I would absolutely love to. Right now I

00:09:51.720 --> 00:09:55.179
really heads down into this specific project,

00:09:55.960 --> 00:09:58.879
right? So you positive that positive reaction

00:09:58.879 --> 00:10:03.399
and then you do the decline and Then you provide

00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:06.059
an alternate. So I just said I'm really heads

00:10:06.059 --> 00:10:09.639
down into this project the alternate would be

00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:12.799
this is something I can add onto my plate tomorrow

00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:17.539
or You know, would you rather I prioritize what

00:10:17.539 --> 00:10:21.909
I just said or this new thing? So it's that positive

00:10:21.909 --> 00:10:25.129
reaction, the decline, and then the alternative.

00:10:25.350 --> 00:10:28.190
That is how research says to approach it. I love

00:10:28.190 --> 00:10:30.370
that. And because you're right, if you're just

00:10:30.370 --> 00:10:31.830
not going to say yes, right, like that's the

00:10:31.830 --> 00:10:33.409
first goal, but you just can't be like, oh, I

00:10:33.409 --> 00:10:35.009
absolutely can't do this. There's no way. Or

00:10:35.009 --> 00:10:37.269
like it's, you know, coming across so negative

00:10:37.269 --> 00:10:39.789
or so much anxiety around it, your boss is going

00:10:39.789 --> 00:10:42.340
to be like, OK, they don't understand. what else

00:10:42.340 --> 00:10:45.419
you have or a volume of work. So I think that's

00:10:45.419 --> 00:10:47.340
a great way where, you know, being on the receiving

00:10:47.340 --> 00:10:51.100
end as a boss, I'd be like, oh, OK. And that

00:10:51.100 --> 00:10:53.799
shows me that you have that foresight to know,

00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:55.720
like, I need to prioritize. I need to understand

00:10:55.720 --> 00:10:58.019
what's most important. Like, let's start there.

00:10:58.220 --> 00:11:01.120
And to me, that would signal somebody who was

00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:04.799
good at their job. And that is also, again, exactly

00:11:04.799 --> 00:11:08.240
what research does, too, is that the more that

00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:12.970
you are able to selectively say no, is managing

00:11:12.970 --> 00:11:15.889
up, managing your manager, and yes, absolutely

00:11:15.889 --> 00:11:19.350
reflects well on you to exactly why you just

00:11:19.350 --> 00:11:22.450
said. And if you are constantly just a yes person,

00:11:22.730 --> 00:11:26.149
you can get lost in the work and it's probably

00:11:26.149 --> 00:11:30.330
might not be as good of a work product. But again,

00:11:30.330 --> 00:11:33.250
it's showing that you don't know how to prioritize

00:11:33.250 --> 00:11:36.470
the critical business needs. So, you know, the

00:11:36.470 --> 00:11:38.850
joys of technology, the other part with boundaries

00:11:38.850 --> 00:11:41.830
is, you know, back in the day, You didn't have

00:11:41.830 --> 00:11:44.309
a phone, right? There was no texting. There was

00:11:44.309 --> 00:11:46.250
no email when you left the office. Those days

00:11:46.250 --> 00:11:49.070
have obviously been long gone, right? We all

00:11:49.070 --> 00:11:51.950
have access to, also have access to our email,

00:11:52.190 --> 00:11:54.789
texts, whatever. People can get in touch with

00:11:54.789 --> 00:11:58.250
us at any time. And so we probably have been

00:11:58.250 --> 00:12:00.950
in those situations where our boss is texting

00:12:00.950 --> 00:12:03.049
us or emailing us and expecting an answer on

00:12:03.049 --> 00:12:05.809
a weekend at night, first thing in the morning.

00:12:06.649 --> 00:12:09.529
There seems to be a lack of boundaries generally

00:12:09.529 --> 00:12:12.809
in a lot of companies because it's 24 -7 and

00:12:12.809 --> 00:12:14.909
that's not fair. That's not what anyone's paid

00:12:14.909 --> 00:12:17.850
for. We have our work hours and our work days

00:12:17.850 --> 00:12:20.820
and sure, emergencies come up. Obviously, you

00:12:20.820 --> 00:12:23.259
know, that's going to happen. But the normal

00:12:23.259 --> 00:12:27.480
operation, if somebody has a boss who just literally

00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:31.500
has no boundaries in terms of texting and emailing

00:12:31.500 --> 00:12:34.080
and calling way outside of the hours, office

00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:36.700
hours, that's just isn't necessary. How do you

00:12:36.700 --> 00:12:41.259
handle that as an employee? It is so hard. And

00:12:41.259 --> 00:12:45.240
I when I post videos specifically about evening.

00:12:45.580 --> 00:12:49.559
boundaries actually get a ton of debate, because

00:12:49.559 --> 00:12:53.320
I get about like 50 % of people that are like,

00:12:53.379 --> 00:12:59.039
absolutely not, I will not respond to, to a text

00:12:59.039 --> 00:13:02.740
after 5pm. And then I get other people that are

00:13:02.740 --> 00:13:04.620
like, well, you haven't been in the consulting

00:13:04.620 --> 00:13:08.139
world, or you're clearly not in tech, that, you

00:13:08.139 --> 00:13:11.100
know, is expected. And so there's a lot of nuance

00:13:11.100 --> 00:13:14.840
in this question. And I think it all comes down

00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:18.029
to, if you are trying to set your boundaries,

00:13:18.330 --> 00:13:21.370
you need to stand by your boundaries. And so

00:13:21.370 --> 00:13:25.009
you need to be realistic about that. Because

00:13:25.009 --> 00:13:28.049
if you don't have the conversation, then you

00:13:28.049 --> 00:13:31.690
are going to end up working all the time, responding

00:13:31.690 --> 00:13:34.669
all the time. And if you are constantly responding

00:13:34.669 --> 00:13:37.870
to your manager at 8 p .m., you are teaching

00:13:37.870 --> 00:13:41.129
them that that is okay. You're teaching them

00:13:41.129 --> 00:13:45.679
that you do that. And so ideally, right? When

00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:49.120
this first starts happening, that is when you

00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:51.539
would set the boundary. And again, I think we

00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:55.639
can do that positive still, that I appreciate

00:13:55.639 --> 00:13:59.120
that these are all really high priority, right?

00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:01.620
That's the positive right there. I appreciate

00:14:01.620 --> 00:14:06.000
that this is important. And then that decline,

00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:10.790
you know, in the evenings, I do need to Either

00:14:10.790 --> 00:14:13.110
spend that time, you know want to spend that

00:14:13.110 --> 00:14:15.669
time with my family or I want to make sure that

00:14:15.669 --> 00:14:18.809
I am Recharging so that I am good to go the next

00:14:18.809 --> 00:14:23.389
morning can we go ahead and you know schedule

00:14:23.389 --> 00:14:27.470
a call in the morning if during work hours if

00:14:27.470 --> 00:14:30.730
there is something that you need or you know,

00:14:30.730 --> 00:14:34.629
if you want to Shoo me an email just understand

00:14:34.629 --> 00:14:38.580
I will respond in the morning as soon as I get

00:14:38.580 --> 00:14:42.240
to work and I want to set that expectation. And

00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:44.419
you really have to hold true to those boundaries.

00:14:45.440 --> 00:14:48.759
What I will say is if you have a manager that

00:14:48.759 --> 00:14:51.700
completely ignores that, you could be looking

00:14:51.700 --> 00:14:55.799
at someone that is a toxic manager and that this

00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:57.720
is just something that they do. And certainly

00:14:57.720 --> 00:15:00.019
that's a whole other conversation in itself.

00:15:00.620 --> 00:15:03.000
But you also have to have that realization that

00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:06.179
toxic managers often don't change. So you really

00:15:06.179 --> 00:15:08.820
have to think about what your options are here.

00:15:09.899 --> 00:15:12.580
And either you hold the boundary, but if they're

00:15:12.580 --> 00:15:15.299
still always texting you and that impacts you,

00:15:15.580 --> 00:15:17.440
you have to think, do I need to try and move

00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:20.480
an organization or do I need to try and move

00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:26.120
out? And I know that seems extreme, but it is

00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:31.200
extreme to experience burnout. It impacts everything

00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:34.879
from a mental standpoint, from a physical standpoint.

00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:38.659
Let me drop a crazy statistic on you. All right.

00:15:38.779 --> 00:15:47.840
In the U .S., we spend $187 billion on medical

00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:53.440
treatment because of burnout alone. Oh, wow.

00:15:54.299 --> 00:15:58.840
Yeah. $187 billion a year. So that is treatment

00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:01.860
for mental health, treatment for on the physical

00:16:01.860 --> 00:16:05.779
side too. $187 billion. Wow. That's crazy. Isn't

00:16:05.779 --> 00:16:08.899
that absolutely crazy? We are legitimately needing

00:16:08.899 --> 00:16:11.320
to seek so much treatment for all this. And that

00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.240
is why it is important to take extreme measures

00:16:14.240 --> 00:16:17.240
and to hold your boundaries. Well, and you used

00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:19.340
a good word about the boundaries and setting

00:16:19.340 --> 00:16:21.659
the expectations. And I have worked in a lot

00:16:21.659 --> 00:16:23.960
of different cultures. I worked in cultures where

00:16:24.190 --> 00:16:28.850
it was like you were praised for being like no

00:16:28.850 --> 00:16:30.870
work -life balance, right? Like to have that

00:16:30.870 --> 00:16:33.690
24 -7 on, sending emails at midnight, like that

00:16:33.690 --> 00:16:36.509
was like, oh, good job. This is what we expect,

00:16:36.769 --> 00:16:38.750
right? Terrible to your point, ties into the

00:16:38.750 --> 00:16:41.190
burnout culture, not a place you want to be.

00:16:41.710 --> 00:16:44.769
And, you know, I remember through the years trying

00:16:44.769 --> 00:16:47.549
to be sensitive to that, having a life, you know,

00:16:47.629 --> 00:16:49.629
worrying about my own boundaries. But I also

00:16:49.629 --> 00:16:51.850
had people on my team various times who were

00:16:51.850 --> 00:16:54.789
very clear on their boundaries. Hey, If something

00:16:54.789 --> 00:16:58.250
is urgent, text me or call me. If it's not, I'm

00:16:58.250 --> 00:17:01.210
not responding to emails after 5 p .m. Whatever

00:17:01.210 --> 00:17:03.230
it was. They weren't city, they weren't at 3

00:17:03.230 --> 00:17:06.210
sexual, but they communicated. They're, this

00:17:06.210 --> 00:17:08.309
is how I operate. If you need something, it's

00:17:08.309 --> 00:17:10.660
emergency, great. was never really going to be

00:17:10.660 --> 00:17:13.799
an emergency, right? There's only a few industries

00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:17.259
where it is life and death. Most of us are not

00:17:17.259 --> 00:17:20.559
in life or death situations. But I do think that

00:17:20.559 --> 00:17:23.539
communicating is really important and it's hard

00:17:23.539 --> 00:17:26.059
if you're in a culture where there is that toxic,

00:17:26.059 --> 00:17:28.920
no boundaries, you have to be able to still put

00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:31.000
them up into your point. Sometimes maybe it's

00:17:31.000 --> 00:17:33.859
not the best place to be. So I think the communication

00:17:33.859 --> 00:17:36.900
is the really key part there. So you mentioned

00:17:37.160 --> 00:17:40.240
Toxic bosses and that's apparently one of our

00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:42.680
most favorite topics on this episode because

00:17:42.680 --> 00:17:46.440
every time you've talked about bad bosses It's

00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:49.799
like our best listen to episodes, which is unfortunate,

00:17:49.799 --> 00:17:52.559
right? Like that's that's a shame, but that's

00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:56.859
real life so someone has a toxic boss and they're

00:17:56.859 --> 00:18:00.240
just Being treated poorly. They're you know,

00:18:00.259 --> 00:18:03.559
just feel like things are very unfair When do

00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:06.640
I go to HR? How do I handle that? How do we handle

00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:09.359
those where we try to put the boundaries up,

00:18:09.559 --> 00:18:12.000
communication expectations, and here we are where

00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.619
we're not in a good place. We're not making progress.

00:18:15.339 --> 00:18:19.119
It's a tough one because I will say this directly

00:18:19.119 --> 00:18:25.079
that we said at the beginning, HR is not your

00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:29.039
friend. That is the reality of it, even if they

00:18:29.039 --> 00:18:32.759
want to be. I was an HR person with all the best

00:18:32.759 --> 00:18:35.299
intention in the world. At the end of the day,

00:18:35.380 --> 00:18:38.259
though, the company pays my paycheck. The company

00:18:38.259 --> 00:18:40.700
is responsible for my livelihood, so my loyalty

00:18:40.700 --> 00:18:43.900
has to be to the company. And it's not that HR

00:18:43.900 --> 00:18:46.920
people are bad. It's just that they are people

00:18:46.920 --> 00:18:49.200
that care about their livelihood as well, too.

00:18:50.140 --> 00:18:52.980
I say that all because that means that when you

00:18:52.980 --> 00:18:59.329
go to HR, you have to be very careful. And you

00:18:59.329 --> 00:19:01.690
have to try carefully. You just have to go in

00:19:01.690 --> 00:19:04.789
knowing again that their loyalty has to be to

00:19:04.789 --> 00:19:07.390
the company. That doesn't mean you shouldn't

00:19:07.390 --> 00:19:09.750
go to them because of a toxic boss. You just

00:19:09.750 --> 00:19:15.690
have to be aware of that reality. One thing that

00:19:15.690 --> 00:19:19.849
I think is very important is to document things

00:19:19.849 --> 00:19:23.069
that are happening. Because what you want to

00:19:23.069 --> 00:19:29.740
do is go to HR With non emotional evidence You

00:19:29.740 --> 00:19:32.559
they don't care about an emotional problem, right?

00:19:32.640 --> 00:19:35.440
But if you go and share here is what's happening.

00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:39.799
Here is the impact of it And you really got to

00:19:39.799 --> 00:19:43.859
try not be emotional which I know is But that

00:19:43.859 --> 00:19:48.299
is that is really important you're right. It's

00:19:48.299 --> 00:19:51.400
it's it has to be black and white And, you know,

00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:54.420
it can't be, I felt this way or I thought this,

00:19:54.420 --> 00:19:57.079
like it has to be something that happened. And,

00:19:57.079 --> 00:19:59.640
and to your point, and again, this is not a split

00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:02.460
on HR people. They're to protect the company.

00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:04.779
They're, they're like protecting employees as

00:20:04.779 --> 00:20:07.519
secondary, tertiary. It's protecting the company.

00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.599
So that's just the nature of the beast. And to

00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.420
your point, having the documentation before you

00:20:14.420 --> 00:20:16.980
escalate something is really important because

00:20:16.980 --> 00:20:19.440
can you show how that's. impacting the company

00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:25.220
maybe. Yeah. And so toxic bosses is absolutely

00:20:25.220 --> 00:20:28.599
something that I get a ton of in my DMs. So,

00:20:28.599 --> 00:20:32.740
so many people are having this issue. And again,

00:20:32.839 --> 00:20:38.200
you can go to HR. You just also have to remind

00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:42.039
yourself that toxic bosses often don't change.

00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:44.539
So if you've tried to set those boundaries and

00:20:44.539 --> 00:20:48.759
they are still doing it, if they are those micromanagers,

00:20:48.819 --> 00:20:52.380
if they are undermining you, there is only so

00:20:52.380 --> 00:20:57.539
much that HR can even do about it. They can give

00:20:57.539 --> 00:21:02.299
feedback to that manager, but you also have to

00:21:02.299 --> 00:21:04.900
know that I'm sure that manager is going to try

00:21:04.900 --> 00:21:08.230
really hard to figure out who went to HR about

00:21:08.230 --> 00:21:10.569
them. And so those are that risk. And even if

00:21:10.569 --> 00:21:12.549
HR doesn't tell them, they're certainly going

00:21:12.549 --> 00:21:16.450
to have their eyes open. Because I've seen that

00:21:16.450 --> 00:21:19.609
too, being in HR. And so that, again, is why

00:21:19.609 --> 00:21:22.269
I say that if you have that toxic manager, you

00:21:22.269 --> 00:21:25.549
have to start thinking about, they're probably

00:21:25.549 --> 00:21:27.910
not going to change. So do I need to find another

00:21:27.910 --> 00:21:30.289
place within this organization? And if that's

00:21:30.289 --> 00:21:32.829
not available, do I need to start that exit strategy?

00:21:33.730 --> 00:21:36.779
Yep. That's great advice. Hard, but... Totally

00:21:36.779 --> 00:21:41.940
true. It sucks. It truly sucks. Yeah. So let's

00:21:41.940 --> 00:21:43.700
switch gears a little bit. We talked about how

00:21:43.700 --> 00:21:46.579
to have boundaries with your boss, but what about

00:21:46.579 --> 00:21:49.059
your coworkers, right? We all want to be team

00:21:49.059 --> 00:21:51.599
players, we want to be supportive, but how do

00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:53.900
we establish those boundaries with our coworkers

00:21:53.900 --> 00:21:56.680
that we don't become the dumping ground for work

00:21:56.680 --> 00:22:00.799
because we get our job done? And that is a real

00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:04.640
thing. If you say yes to helping someone, the

00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:06.819
first time, they're going to look at you as their

00:22:06.819 --> 00:22:08.599
backup plan. They're going to look at you as

00:22:08.599 --> 00:22:11.180
the person to go to. And when I think of my own

00:22:11.180 --> 00:22:13.960
experience, I feel like, oh, I've had those people

00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:16.180
too, where I'm like, oh, I know who to go to

00:22:16.180 --> 00:22:18.599
and how I'm sure that was really annoying for

00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:23.819
them. And so it is follow that same strategy.

00:22:24.140 --> 00:22:28.039
It's that positive, that decline and that alternate

00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:32.730
the, hey, I'd really love to help you out. Right

00:22:32.730 --> 00:22:37.930
now, I just don't have the capacity. If you can

00:22:37.930 --> 00:22:41.369
hold until Monday, I'd be happy to. No, that's

00:22:41.369 --> 00:22:43.950
if you have capacity Monday. You've got to know

00:22:43.950 --> 00:22:47.589
your schedule there. Or I wonder if perhaps this

00:22:47.589 --> 00:22:50.730
is something that Sarah could support you with,

00:22:51.069 --> 00:22:54.009
or provide that alternative. Another alternative

00:22:54.009 --> 00:22:57.490
to supporting coworkers is to point them in the

00:22:57.490 --> 00:23:01.460
right direction. like point them to resources

00:23:01.460 --> 00:23:05.359
or say, hey, I can look at your outline for five

00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:07.539
minutes, or I can look at this for five minutes,

00:23:07.700 --> 00:23:09.940
but you should not be the one that executes.

00:23:10.160 --> 00:23:12.319
You need to just point them in the right direction.

00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:15.660
And that can be your alternate too, right? The,

00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:18.039
hey, I'd love to support you. Unfortunately,

00:23:18.059 --> 00:23:21.579
I can't right now. Here's the alternate of, you

00:23:21.579 --> 00:23:23.700
know, but I'd be happy to look at that your outline

00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:26.119
for five minutes or be happy to point you in

00:23:26.119 --> 00:23:29.019
this direction. I like that, especially because,

00:23:29.059 --> 00:23:32.319
let's be honest, there's some people who, it

00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:33.660
might not even be a capacity issue that I need

00:23:33.660 --> 00:23:35.960
to push back on, but like, I'm tired of doing

00:23:35.960 --> 00:23:38.720
your job for you, right? Like, I could do this

00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:41.299
too, but this is your job. So, you know, I think

00:23:41.299 --> 00:23:43.599
that's important where you don't even have to

00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:46.000
apologize or make it about your capacity, right?

00:23:46.299 --> 00:23:47.680
Like, and of course you don't want to come back

00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:50.869
and be like, It's not my job to yourself, but

00:23:50.869 --> 00:23:53.210
to your point kind of pointing them in the right

00:23:53.210 --> 00:23:55.569
direction of tools or I can look at this for

00:23:55.569 --> 00:23:58.130
you. But I think that's a big challenge is again,

00:23:58.289 --> 00:24:00.069
you're a high performer. You have a low performer

00:24:00.069 --> 00:24:01.769
in your team. They're going to catch on real

00:24:01.769 --> 00:24:04.250
quick. Like, oh, I can get you to do these things

00:24:04.250 --> 00:24:06.950
for me. So it's having those, again, boundaries

00:24:06.950 --> 00:24:09.829
and being able to have those conversations. Is

00:24:09.829 --> 00:24:11.690
there any other recommendations when it comes

00:24:11.690 --> 00:24:14.809
to the coworker piece of just when they're hard

00:24:14.809 --> 00:24:17.480
to deal with and you need those boundaries? Yeah,

00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:20.519
I think at the end of the day you want to respond

00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:25.819
warmly, of course. And a warm no is okay. And

00:24:25.819 --> 00:24:27.440
to your point, you don't have to say, you know,

00:24:27.599 --> 00:24:30.140
to capacity. You know, you can simply, you don't

00:24:30.140 --> 00:24:32.480
have to over explain. You can simply say, you

00:24:32.480 --> 00:24:34.460
know, unfortunate, you know. again, would love

00:24:34.460 --> 00:24:37.559
to, that positive, start with that positive.

00:24:38.160 --> 00:24:40.220
I'd love to help you. Unfortunately, I'm not

00:24:40.220 --> 00:24:43.500
able to right now. Here is where I think you

00:24:43.500 --> 00:24:45.980
would be the right place for you to go to get

00:24:45.980 --> 00:24:50.359
started. And then if you do fumble that, it's

00:24:50.359 --> 00:24:53.400
okay to go back and say, I recognize actually

00:24:53.400 --> 00:24:57.759
that I wasn't clear yesterday. Here is what I'm

00:24:57.759 --> 00:25:01.140
able to do. You can go back and reset that boundary

00:25:01.140 --> 00:25:03.779
with them. So do we ever communicate that with

00:25:03.779 --> 00:25:05.940
our manager? Assuming we share the same manager

00:25:05.940 --> 00:25:08.420
and that keeps happening. Like, how do I handle

00:25:08.420 --> 00:25:11.880
that from a peer standpoint where I have somebody

00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:13.460
on my team who keeps doing this? We have the

00:25:13.460 --> 00:25:17.480
same boss. Do I tell them? How does that work?

00:25:18.160 --> 00:25:20.700
That is an excellent question. And again, I think

00:25:20.700 --> 00:25:24.039
this is where relationship dynamics come into

00:25:24.039 --> 00:25:28.049
play. all the time in the corporate political

00:25:28.049 --> 00:25:31.730
world. Because we know that if you go to your

00:25:31.730 --> 00:25:34.569
boss and your peer finds out about that as well,

00:25:34.789 --> 00:25:38.750
too, that relationship is not going to be great

00:25:38.750 --> 00:25:41.750
after that. And so I think you need to think

00:25:41.750 --> 00:25:47.670
clearly about the fallout of you going to their

00:25:47.670 --> 00:25:50.690
boss. And if that is something that you feel

00:25:50.690 --> 00:25:54.190
comfortable connecting with your coworker about,

00:25:54.410 --> 00:25:57.309
that's That's probably the best place to start.

00:25:57.930 --> 00:26:00.210
Also recognizing too, though, that there could

00:26:00.210 --> 00:26:03.509
be some hurt feelings there too. But if you do

00:26:03.509 --> 00:26:05.390
not have that kind of relationship or you cannot

00:26:05.390 --> 00:26:08.529
have that conversation with them, I think it

00:26:08.529 --> 00:26:12.130
is fair to connect with your manager. But again,

00:26:12.589 --> 00:26:16.390
you got to keep that emotion out of it and really

00:26:16.390 --> 00:26:20.519
focus on the work. Right. I have concerned about,

00:26:20.519 --> 00:26:24.000
you know, X, Y, Z getting done. Or, you know,

00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:27.039
I am concerned of, you know, I need to focus

00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:29.799
on this, this and this. And I don't know if I

00:26:29.799 --> 00:26:33.099
have that capacity to assist this person with

00:26:33.099 --> 00:26:34.980
that. So then you're focusing on the work and

00:26:34.980 --> 00:26:37.900
you're not putting necessarily the blame on this

00:26:37.900 --> 00:26:40.819
person. I like that. Because if you can avoid

00:26:40.819 --> 00:26:43.599
the blame, then first of all, doesn't feel personal.

00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:46.099
And second of all, even if it is. totally their

00:26:46.099 --> 00:26:48.400
fault. It's hard to recover from that from a

00:26:48.400 --> 00:26:51.160
relationship standpoint. So if it can be more

00:26:51.160 --> 00:26:53.099
explaining the situation and what the impact

00:26:53.099 --> 00:26:55.339
of that is, then that's easier for everybody

00:26:55.339 --> 00:26:57.920
to move forward for sure. So that's 100 % advice.

00:26:59.059 --> 00:27:02.140
So we probably have those moments where, whether

00:27:02.140 --> 00:27:05.799
it's with our boss or co -worker, where we didn't

00:27:05.799 --> 00:27:08.660
handle it perfectly. We didn't use that, you

00:27:08.660 --> 00:27:11.180
know, having something positive, you know, saying

00:27:11.180 --> 00:27:14.869
why not, having an alternative, right? anxious,

00:27:15.069 --> 00:27:17.809
we get emotional or frustrated, we're almost

00:27:17.809 --> 00:27:20.910
burnt out. How do we recover from that? If I

00:27:20.910 --> 00:27:23.930
totally blew it with my boss or even a co -worker,

00:27:24.230 --> 00:27:28.369
how do I recover? One, you have to give yourself

00:27:28.369 --> 00:27:32.170
so much grace in this. You do. If you beat yourself

00:27:32.170 --> 00:27:35.589
up about it, it's not going to accomplish anything,

00:27:35.769 --> 00:27:37.829
and it might make you more nervous the next time,

00:27:38.009 --> 00:27:40.329
too. True. You have to be understanding of yourself.

00:27:40.990 --> 00:27:42.990
And again, you've learned about the fawn response.

00:27:43.630 --> 00:27:46.009
It's a nervous system reaction. This isn't you.

00:27:46.230 --> 00:27:50.089
So give yourself that grace. And then what you

00:27:50.089 --> 00:27:52.529
need to do is you need to hold your boundary.

00:27:52.690 --> 00:27:55.009
You need to approach it again. Don't just give

00:27:55.009 --> 00:27:57.500
up. And how you can do that, similar to what

00:27:57.500 --> 00:27:59.960
I said with the coworker, again, of, you know,

00:27:59.960 --> 00:28:03.740
I recognize actually that I was not clear yesterday.

00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:07.420
Here is what I am looking at. And then the alternative,

00:28:07.539 --> 00:28:10.880
right? Still that same path, if you will, that

00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:14.099
positive decline alternative, but restating,

00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:16.279
you know what? I recognize I wasn't clear yesterday.

00:28:16.500 --> 00:28:20.240
Or you could say, you know what? I realized that

00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:29.190
I, excuse me, sorry. Or you can say, I did not

00:28:29.190 --> 00:28:31.970
realize that I had X, Y, and Z. I want to go

00:28:31.970 --> 00:28:35.390
back to our conversation yesterday and boundary.

00:28:36.390 --> 00:28:38.849
So give yourself that grace. Think through how

00:28:38.849 --> 00:28:42.569
you want to tackle it again. But you've got to

00:28:42.569 --> 00:28:44.829
hold that boundary. Yeah. It's not just, oh,

00:28:44.849 --> 00:28:47.650
I'll try again next time. Right. Don't do that.

00:28:47.670 --> 00:28:49.289
You're going to hurt yourself in this. Yeah.

00:28:49.289 --> 00:28:51.490
Yeah. And I love just acknowledging it. Again,

00:28:51.609 --> 00:28:54.029
we're human. We're all going to mess up a conversation,

00:28:54.230 --> 00:28:56.069
not say the right thing. be too aggressive, not

00:28:56.069 --> 00:28:59.289
aggressive, whatever. So being able to just go

00:28:59.289 --> 00:29:01.329
back and be like, hey, I need to revisit this.

00:29:01.410 --> 00:29:03.390
Let's talk about this again. Or I didn't handle

00:29:03.390 --> 00:29:06.269
this appropriately yesterday. That's OK. And

00:29:06.269 --> 00:29:08.849
the respect level for somebody when they do that

00:29:08.849 --> 00:29:14.390
is going to go up. Yes. Yes. Right now, people,

00:29:14.609 --> 00:29:17.369
the more that we can be transparent with others

00:29:17.369 --> 00:29:21.339
and recognize that we are. all human. The easier

00:29:21.339 --> 00:29:25.180
it is, honestly, to do business. It helps a lot.

00:29:25.460 --> 00:29:28.440
No, that's very true. So we've talked about the

00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:33.440
boundaries and how to better set them. But what

00:29:33.440 --> 00:29:36.440
happens when we don't? And we talked about the

00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:39.660
burnout and the mental health crisis. And what's

00:29:39.660 --> 00:29:42.240
going to happen to us if we keep ignoring our

00:29:42.240 --> 00:29:47.329
limits? Yeah. It's not, it's not great. I mean,

00:29:47.369 --> 00:29:51.130
like I said, right, 187 billion spent from a

00:29:51.130 --> 00:29:55.089
medical standpoint. But what happens is you have

00:29:55.089 --> 00:29:57.950
cortisol, which is our stress hormone. And the

00:29:57.950 --> 00:30:01.309
more that cortisol is elevated, if you have chronic

00:30:01.309 --> 00:30:05.529
stress, that is what causes a ton of physical

00:30:05.529 --> 00:30:09.029
issues, especially for women specifically, if

00:30:09.029 --> 00:30:12.029
you've had a knot here constantly in your neck.

00:30:12.220 --> 00:30:16.759
Yes, very common. It is from stress. It is not

00:30:16.759 --> 00:30:19.740
just, you know, you worked out and you've got

00:30:19.740 --> 00:30:23.059
knots, right? Very, very common for that to be

00:30:23.059 --> 00:30:25.140
here. For men, it's actually lower back. That's

00:30:25.140 --> 00:30:28.019
where they will get their pain. There is a stat

00:30:28.019 --> 00:30:33.359
that working more than 55 hours in a week significantly

00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:35.519
increases your risk of heart attack and stroke.

00:30:35.660 --> 00:30:39.599
Oh. Yes. And I feel like people do that all the

00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:41.880
time and they, you know, I was working 55 hours

00:30:41.880 --> 00:30:46.359
a week this week and it literally impacts. potential

00:30:46.359 --> 00:30:49.240
for a heart attack. I have a friend who at 39

00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:52.119
had a heart attack recently, and it was the most...

00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:55.299
Oh my gosh. He's okay. It was the most shocking

00:30:55.299 --> 00:30:57.640
thing in the world. He worked out with a personal

00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:01.200
trainer. He was looking great. And then when

00:31:01.200 --> 00:31:03.839
we heard that he had the heart attack, it was

00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:06.660
horrifying and just so unexpected. And it was

00:31:06.660 --> 00:31:11.079
100 % from stress. And I've had other people

00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:14.500
in my DMs that have had heart attacks at a young

00:31:14.500 --> 00:31:16.539
age, and it's becoming more and more prevalent

00:31:16.539 --> 00:31:20.569
because of stress. because of that cortisol.

00:31:21.029 --> 00:31:22.670
Yesterday, I had someone that I was chatting

00:31:22.670 --> 00:31:25.730
with, and she was mentioning how she had gotten

00:31:25.730 --> 00:31:28.829
shingles from stress. And I was like, yeah. And

00:31:28.829 --> 00:31:30.630
I was like, wait, have we chatted before? And

00:31:30.630 --> 00:31:32.349
she was like, no. I was like, oh, literally someone

00:31:32.349 --> 00:31:34.309
else in my email had just told me how they had

00:31:34.309 --> 00:31:38.769
shingles from stress. Yeah, so many people email

00:31:38.769 --> 00:31:41.329
me constantly about all their health issues.

00:31:41.730 --> 00:31:46.009
There's just a ton. And I personally experienced

00:31:46.009 --> 00:31:50.319
this myself, which was absolutely wild. I was

00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:54.079
in a situation where I had a toxic boss, I was

00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:57.259
working seven days a week from fear. I feel like

00:31:57.259 --> 00:32:01.000
I had to get everything done and I worked myself

00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:05.460
into an autoimmune disorder. Yes, I was constantly

00:32:05.460 --> 00:32:08.500
in pain. It was absolutely awful. I was waking

00:32:08.500 --> 00:32:10.140
up in the middle of the night to foam roll. Like

00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:13.599
I constantly had to pee. foam rolling. And at

00:32:13.599 --> 00:32:15.940
the same time, too, I did not feel like I could

00:32:15.940 --> 00:32:18.779
go see a doctor because there was no time to

00:32:18.779 --> 00:32:21.420
see the doctor. Oh, no. I had to be working.

00:32:21.740 --> 00:32:24.440
And again, you just get yourself into this habit

00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:27.539
where you ignore the physical symptoms because

00:32:27.539 --> 00:32:31.240
you are so focused on the work for all the reasons

00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:35.180
that we talked about. So thinking of your personal

00:32:35.180 --> 00:32:38.259
situation, what would you have done differently

00:32:38.259 --> 00:32:42.589
to stop it before it got that bad? Yeah. I mean,

00:32:42.670 --> 00:32:46.869
and I, I did all the right things too. I did

00:32:46.869 --> 00:32:50.630
go to my boss and shared with her, you know,

00:32:50.710 --> 00:32:53.430
the workload, how many hours that I was working

00:32:53.430 --> 00:32:56.450
and her response was simply to prioritize better,

00:32:56.450 --> 00:32:58.269
but she would not give me, she would not take

00:32:58.269 --> 00:33:02.410
anything off, off my plate. I went to HR and

00:33:02.410 --> 00:33:04.210
chatted about it, right? All these, all these

00:33:04.210 --> 00:33:05.750
things, right? I know what you're supposed to

00:33:05.750 --> 00:33:09.630
do. So I did them to make sure. And I think it

00:33:09.630 --> 00:33:13.839
was a huge. a huge lesson for me. I mean, clearly,

00:33:14.339 --> 00:33:18.039
because at the end of the day, I ended up working

00:33:18.039 --> 00:33:21.259
all those hours out of fear. I actually ended

00:33:21.259 --> 00:33:24.839
up taking a medical leave when the pain got too

00:33:24.839 --> 00:33:26.380
real. That's actually when I went and finally

00:33:26.380 --> 00:33:29.259
saw a doctor out on medical leave. And while

00:33:29.259 --> 00:33:31.579
I was on a medical leave, I actually got laid

00:33:31.579 --> 00:33:35.440
off. And so you think of all the reasons that

00:33:35.440 --> 00:33:39.519
you are working so hard, right? You are so afraid

00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:43.380
of being let go, that job security. And in the

00:33:43.380 --> 00:33:47.079
end, I was laid off anyway. And I was just talking

00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:49.500
to someone yesterday who was just part of one

00:33:49.500 --> 00:33:52.740
of the massive layoffs that we've had. And he

00:33:52.740 --> 00:33:54.839
was just talking about too, like all these late

00:33:54.839 --> 00:33:58.630
nights, like I put in so much extra effort. And

00:33:58.630 --> 00:34:00.730
at the end of the day, it just doesn't matter.

00:34:00.950 --> 00:34:04.130
You can still get laid off. I worked so hard

00:34:04.130 --> 00:34:06.130
and all that I was left with was an autoimmune

00:34:06.130 --> 00:34:09.050
disorder. It's a terrible bumper sticker. Pretty

00:34:09.050 --> 00:34:12.030
horrible, right? Yes. But so you really have

00:34:12.030 --> 00:34:15.369
to be thinking through that. And I'm so glad

00:34:15.369 --> 00:34:18.730
that I ended up taking a leave. And one, I will

00:34:18.730 --> 00:34:20.929
say, I mean, I took my leave because of the pain.

00:34:21.010 --> 00:34:24.409
You can take leave because of anxiety, because

00:34:24.409 --> 00:34:28.630
of depression. that is an ADA covered disorder.

00:34:29.329 --> 00:34:31.969
And so just know that that is an option as well

00:34:31.969 --> 00:34:34.170
too. And I would so encourage people to use that,

00:34:34.369 --> 00:34:37.289
especially because we are having this epidemic

00:34:37.289 --> 00:34:41.070
of people with that anxiety, with that depression,

00:34:41.289 --> 00:34:43.710
because of all this burnout. And so that is something

00:34:43.710 --> 00:34:47.150
I absolutely wanna encourage folks to look into.

00:34:47.480 --> 00:34:50.139
That's great information. And you're right. I've

00:34:50.139 --> 00:34:51.960
seen it time and time again. People who have

00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:55.619
sacrificed their family time, their health, their

00:34:55.619 --> 00:34:59.800
personal life, all of this to be 24 seven days

00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:02.239
a week. And guess what? At the end of the day,

00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:04.460
it didn't matter. They didn't get the promotion.

00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:06.960
Most of them ended up still being let go. That

00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:09.659
was the situation. So it's like we're willing

00:35:09.659 --> 00:35:13.480
to sacrifice. everything for a job who's not

00:35:13.480 --> 00:35:16.219
going to sacrifice anything for you. And that's

00:35:16.219 --> 00:35:18.519
the reality. I mean, that's just the world we

00:35:18.519 --> 00:35:21.039
live in. It's business, but that's why you really

00:35:21.039 --> 00:35:23.219
have to take care of yourself and start with

00:35:23.219 --> 00:35:27.360
those boundaries to your earlier point of that

00:35:27.360 --> 00:35:30.199
to help make that not happen. Yeah. Well, and

00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:33.539
especially today with all of these layoffs, it's

00:35:33.539 --> 00:35:36.099
a different world than it was before where loyalty

00:35:36.099 --> 00:35:40.030
to a company mattered. there is no right there

00:35:40.030 --> 00:35:42.690
is no loyalty anymore they are not loyal to you

00:35:42.690 --> 00:35:44.969
right we just said you can work all these hours

00:35:44.969 --> 00:35:47.050
and still get laid off you need to view this

00:35:47.050 --> 00:35:50.670
as a transaction they are not loyal to you you

00:35:50.670 --> 00:35:53.849
should not be loyal to them it used to be such

00:35:53.849 --> 00:35:56.409
a bad thing to say oh i'm just here for a paycheck

00:35:56.409 --> 00:36:00.389
but you know what Just go there for that paycheck.

00:36:00.929 --> 00:36:03.650
Do your good work. Do what you need to do, especially

00:36:03.650 --> 00:36:05.650
our high achievers, who I know intrinsically

00:36:05.650 --> 00:36:09.210
you need to do that. But you just can't view

00:36:09.210 --> 00:36:11.670
the companies anymore as someone that is going

00:36:11.670 --> 00:36:13.949
to be loyal to you, and it is not worth your

00:36:13.949 --> 00:36:17.769
health. It's just not worth it. And you can't

00:36:17.769 --> 00:36:20.690
just throw aside when symptoms start to come

00:36:20.690 --> 00:36:24.409
up from the burnout. You have to start listening

00:36:24.409 --> 00:36:27.239
to your body and do something about it. That

00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:29.880
is a great piece of advice to end on. Carrie,

00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:32.679
thank you for being our work friend. I appreciate

00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:35.599
your insight so much. If people want to connect

00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:37.699
with you, where is the best place to do that?

00:36:38.139 --> 00:36:40.880
Instagram is probably where I am most active,

00:36:41.119 --> 00:36:44.280
so at Hey Work Friend, I make it easy. I'm also

00:36:44.280 --> 00:36:47.139
on Facebook and TikTok as well. And I do also

00:36:47.139 --> 00:36:50.480
have a new group that I just launched called

00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:53.920
Work Decoded. It's kind of the inner circle of

00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:57.000
HeyWorkFriend, where if you need more personalized

00:36:57.000 --> 00:37:01.000
support, yes, it's a great way to do it. Yes,

00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:03.139
as opposed to some of that general advice I give

00:37:03.139 --> 00:37:05.760
if you're needing something. And HeyWorkFriend

00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.820
.com, I make it easy. Love it. Thank you so much.

00:37:09.340 --> 00:37:12.500
And yeah, it's helping people at work. That's

00:37:12.500 --> 00:37:15.519
awesome. Thank you so much for being here. Thank

00:37:15.519 --> 00:37:18.059
you, Betsy. It was great. Appreciate it. This

00:37:18.059 --> 00:37:20.820
was such a good and honestly very real conversation

00:37:20.820 --> 00:37:23.780
with Carrie. The big takeaway for me is this

00:37:23.780 --> 00:37:26.360
boundaries are not about being difficult. They

00:37:26.360 --> 00:37:29.139
are about being clear and clarity protects your

00:37:29.139 --> 00:37:32.739
time, your work, your energy and honestly your

00:37:32.739 --> 00:37:35.719
health. Carrie reminded us that you can be warm

00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:38.809
and still say no. You can be a team player without

00:37:38.809 --> 00:37:41.789
becoming the team's dumping ground. And you can

00:37:41.789 --> 00:37:43.929
care about your work without sacrificing your

00:37:43.929 --> 00:37:46.869
entire life for a company that may still make

00:37:46.869 --> 00:37:48.730
a business decision that has nothing to do with

00:37:48.730 --> 00:37:52.010
your effort or your loyalty. You can connect

00:37:52.010 --> 00:37:54.230
with Carrie at HeyWorkfriend on Instagram, Facebook,

00:37:54.409 --> 00:37:57.550
and TikTok and find more at heyworkfriend .com.

00:37:58.050 --> 00:38:00.750
Until next time, stay loud and stay lifted.