Career Growth for Women: The Likeable Badass Method to Build Influence

WEBVTT

00:00:00.740 --> 00:00:03.779
Welcome to Loud and Lifted. I'm your host, Betsy

00:00:03.779 --> 00:00:07.759
Ham. Be assertive, but not aggressive. Speak

00:00:07.759 --> 00:00:11.980
up, but don't be too loud. Show confidence, but

00:00:11.980 --> 00:00:15.019
actually stay humble. You likely heard all this

00:00:15.019 --> 00:00:18.000
advice. It seems impossible to walk the fine

00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:21.100
line. And how do you be powerful and likable?

00:00:21.719 --> 00:00:24.960
We want to know how to be badasses, not bitches.

00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:28.839
I'm joined by Alison Fregale. She's an organizational

00:00:28.839 --> 00:00:31.420
psychologist and a professor who studies the

00:00:31.420 --> 00:00:34.640
science of status, aka how much we're respected

00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:37.479
and regarded by other people and why that matters

00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:41.579
so much for success and satisfaction. She breaks

00:00:41.579 --> 00:00:43.460
it down in the simplest way I've heard. People

00:00:43.460 --> 00:00:46.020
are constantly sizing us up on two things. Are

00:00:46.020 --> 00:00:50.219
you a friend or foe? Do you care? And can you

00:00:50.219 --> 00:00:52.969
deliver? Are you capable? That's the heart of

00:00:52.969 --> 00:00:56.329
being a likable badass. So we're going to dig

00:00:56.329 --> 00:00:58.869
into how women can build respect without trading

00:00:58.869 --> 00:01:01.990
away who they are because we're not here to pick

00:01:01.990 --> 00:01:05.049
liked or taken seriously. We're here for both.

00:01:05.530 --> 00:01:09.510
So let's go. Welcome to Loud and Lifted, Allison.

00:01:09.730 --> 00:01:12.349
Thank you so much for being here. My pleasure.

00:01:12.489 --> 00:01:14.989
Thanks for having me. So I love nothing more

00:01:14.989 --> 00:01:19.879
than when you're scrolling. title or platforming

00:01:19.879 --> 00:01:22.540
just kind of jumps out at you and grabs your

00:01:22.540 --> 00:01:24.680
attention. And you're like, oh, I need to learn

00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:27.200
more about this. And that's why I came across

00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:31.239
you and Likeable Badass. Love that so much. So

00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:33.959
tell us a little bit about how did you come up

00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:36.599
with this and what exactly Likeable Badass is

00:01:36.599 --> 00:01:39.819
all about. Yeah. So the book and a lot of the

00:01:39.819 --> 00:01:42.219
work I do is about the science of status and

00:01:42.219 --> 00:01:44.780
what an important variable that is. Status is

00:01:44.780 --> 00:01:46.739
how much we're respected and regarded by other

00:01:46.739 --> 00:01:49.629
people. And so it's a judgment that other people

00:01:49.629 --> 00:01:51.969
make about us, but it's a judgment that is really

00:01:51.969 --> 00:01:55.930
important for our life satisfaction and our success.

00:01:56.590 --> 00:02:00.010
And likable badass is my catchy term for how

00:02:00.010 --> 00:02:02.609
people make decisions about how much status another

00:02:02.609 --> 00:02:04.730
person has, how much respect they have for that

00:02:04.730 --> 00:02:07.230
person. Everyone's always trying to evaluate

00:02:07.230 --> 00:02:09.289
two things. We care about these things and other

00:02:09.289 --> 00:02:12.090
people evaluate us on these two things. The first

00:02:12.090 --> 00:02:13.909
thing we want to figure out about another person

00:02:13.909 --> 00:02:17.800
is are they friend or are they foe? Are they

00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:20.159
going to be helpful to us? Or are they going

00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:22.319
to hurt us or compete with us, make our lives

00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:25.520
difficult? And obviously, we prefer it to be

00:02:25.520 --> 00:02:27.520
in relationships with people that we think, oh,

00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:29.800
this is going to be a helpful person. They are

00:02:29.800 --> 00:02:32.620
going to make my life better by being not just

00:02:32.620 --> 00:02:37.020
likable, but honest, sincere, giving, helpful.

00:02:37.099 --> 00:02:39.680
Those qualities make other people's lives better.

00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:43.560
And we value that. And then the second thing

00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:47.780
that we care about is beyond your intentions

00:02:47.780 --> 00:02:50.759
is your capability. Can you deliver? So it's

00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:53.120
nice that you want to help me, but are you actually

00:02:53.120 --> 00:02:55.280
able to help me? Because do you have the skills?

00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:57.759
Are you results oriented, competent, capable,

00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:01.620
persistent, decisive? So on the cover of the

00:03:01.620 --> 00:03:04.219
book, I use the terms likable and badass to talk

00:03:04.219 --> 00:03:06.379
about those two fundamental dimensions. Do you

00:03:06.379 --> 00:03:09.599
care and are you capable? And those two dimensions

00:03:09.599 --> 00:03:12.819
are how respects judgments get made. So what

00:03:12.819 --> 00:03:17.419
it means for us is Every time we can show up

00:03:17.419 --> 00:03:21.199
in ways that send signals to our audience, hey,

00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:23.620
this person really cares and they're really good

00:03:23.620 --> 00:03:25.879
at what they do, then what will happen in the

00:03:25.879 --> 00:03:28.180
other person's brain is they'll be like, oh my

00:03:28.180 --> 00:03:30.360
gosh, I really respect that person. I value that

00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:33.080
person. So that's really what I try to teach

00:03:33.080 --> 00:03:35.780
people is I break down the science, but then

00:03:35.780 --> 00:03:38.840
I help them think about how they show up so that

00:03:38.840 --> 00:03:42.080
they send the signals to the world because all

00:03:42.080 --> 00:03:44.500
of this is perception. They send those signals

00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:47.379
that people can realize how caring and capable

00:03:47.379 --> 00:03:50.020
you truly are. Oh, and I love that. It's such

00:03:50.020 --> 00:03:52.819
a balance. And I think back to early in my career,

00:03:53.419 --> 00:03:55.219
where I started having people report to me they

00:03:55.219 --> 00:03:56.699
were older than me. And it's like, you wanted

00:03:56.699 --> 00:03:59.939
them to like you, but then you wanted them to

00:03:59.939 --> 00:04:02.280
respect you and understand that you were in a

00:04:02.280 --> 00:04:04.960
position of power. So it is a very interesting

00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:07.240
concept that I think, I'm assuming from the research,

00:04:07.620 --> 00:04:09.759
women probably struggle more with this than men.

00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:12.960
They do, they can, which is why I chose to write

00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:15.099
the book for women, even though status is not

00:04:15.099 --> 00:04:19.040
a gendered concept, because a variety of things

00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:21.120
influence our status. A lot of things that we

00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:24.699
control about how we show up influence our status,

00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:26.920
but also some things that we don't control. And

00:04:26.920 --> 00:04:29.939
gender is one of those things. So that's where

00:04:29.939 --> 00:04:32.279
bias comes in. So all other things being equal,

00:04:32.740 --> 00:04:35.459
people will instantly ascribe more respect and

00:04:35.459 --> 00:04:39.370
status to a man than to a woman. So, again, that

00:04:39.370 --> 00:04:41.670
is bias, and that's something that we have to

00:04:41.670 --> 00:04:45.290
overcome. It is very overcomeable through the

00:04:45.290 --> 00:04:48.629
things that we can control, but that is why it

00:04:48.629 --> 00:04:51.269
can feel like more of a struggle for women because

00:04:51.269 --> 00:04:53.850
it is more work. It is more of a struggle. Sure.

00:04:54.370 --> 00:04:58.050
And what's the difference between power and status?

00:04:58.170 --> 00:05:01.730
How do you define that? So status is being respected

00:05:01.730 --> 00:05:04.089
and valued by other people. Power is controlling

00:05:04.089 --> 00:05:07.000
resources that have value. to you and other people.

00:05:07.639 --> 00:05:10.600
So money is a resource. Being able to make decisions

00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:13.300
on your own, being able to give people rewards

00:05:13.300 --> 00:05:15.439
and punishments, hire them and fire them, give

00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:18.399
them good performance reviews or bad ones, buy

00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:20.879
their product or not. Like these are forms of

00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:23.220
power. I even say, you know, as a parent of three

00:05:23.220 --> 00:05:26.420
kids, one of my kids drives a car. And so if

00:05:26.420 --> 00:05:29.060
I'm holding the car keys, I'm holding a resource

00:05:29.060 --> 00:05:31.139
that at that moment has value, but only to that

00:05:31.139 --> 00:05:33.980
kid, right? So that would do nothing for my two

00:05:33.980 --> 00:05:36.420
that don't drive. But if I'm holding it, I have

00:05:36.420 --> 00:05:38.879
a resource that he wants, and what will happen?

00:05:39.139 --> 00:05:41.439
I will have more influence. He's much more likely

00:05:41.439 --> 00:05:43.600
to do what I say. And so why power is so valuable

00:05:43.600 --> 00:05:46.579
to us is it sets us up for influence. Status

00:05:46.579 --> 00:05:49.740
is different. Status is, again, being respected,

00:05:49.779 --> 00:05:51.959
but it also is a source of influence because

00:05:51.959 --> 00:05:54.500
if we don't respect people, we'll never be influenced

00:05:54.500 --> 00:05:56.500
by them. But if we do respect them, we're much

00:05:56.500 --> 00:05:58.779
more likely to trust them and do what they say.

00:05:59.980 --> 00:06:01.519
That's a great point. And I think people probably

00:06:01.519 --> 00:06:03.720
get that confused and try to use it interchangeably.

00:06:03.740 --> 00:06:05.560
You think like, oh, you're a vice president,

00:06:05.699 --> 00:06:07.860
you're a director, you have power, you have status,

00:06:07.980 --> 00:06:11.420
and you may not have both or either. Correct.

00:06:11.560 --> 00:06:13.939
So it's absolutely the case that you can have

00:06:13.939 --> 00:06:16.519
status on the basis of a job title or a credential.

00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:19.480
That simply knowing, people knowing that you

00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:21.899
hold this position, you hold this degree, their

00:06:21.899 --> 00:06:24.720
brain might say, oh, okay, I respect that. I

00:06:24.720 --> 00:06:27.730
respect that position. So that can happen, and

00:06:27.730 --> 00:06:30.750
so you could have both. But obviously, as you

00:06:30.750 --> 00:06:32.629
say, it's not a guarantee you're going to have

00:06:32.629 --> 00:06:36.170
both. Just because you have power in a position

00:06:36.170 --> 00:06:38.790
or a title does not necessarily mean that people

00:06:38.790 --> 00:06:41.790
respect you. Everyone can think of somebody that

00:06:41.790 --> 00:06:44.009
has a lot of power and that no one respects.

00:06:44.970 --> 00:06:47.670
That's so fast. Right? Life is hard for those

00:06:47.670 --> 00:06:50.449
people. And so we want to understand both of

00:06:50.449 --> 00:06:52.829
these variables because we deserve, particularly

00:06:52.829 --> 00:06:55.350
women, deserve to have both. It's not about having

00:06:55.350 --> 00:06:57.189
to trade one for the other. It's about how do

00:06:57.189 --> 00:06:58.610
you get yourself in a situation where you can

00:06:58.610 --> 00:07:00.350
have as much power and as much status as you

00:07:00.350 --> 00:07:03.889
want. So how do you do that? Well, I talk about

00:07:03.889 --> 00:07:06.529
in the book about focusing on status first and

00:07:06.529 --> 00:07:08.550
flipping the script. So many of us want to jump

00:07:08.550 --> 00:07:11.970
to the power, like, promote me, pay me. I want

00:07:11.970 --> 00:07:13.949
you to be promoted. I want you to be paid. You

00:07:13.949 --> 00:07:16.810
deserve it. But the problem is, if you try to

00:07:16.810 --> 00:07:19.389
go after those things with an audience that doesn't

00:07:19.389 --> 00:07:22.110
value you, they're very likely to want to give

00:07:22.110 --> 00:07:25.209
you those things. Starting with status, I talk

00:07:25.209 --> 00:07:27.189
about is really foundational and important. And

00:07:27.189 --> 00:07:30.629
the way we influence it is by thinking about

00:07:30.629 --> 00:07:34.029
how we show up in our environments, how we communicate,

00:07:34.170 --> 00:07:37.329
how we get in front of people and in ways that

00:07:37.329 --> 00:07:40.089
are going to send signals to them. Hey, I really

00:07:40.089 --> 00:07:41.810
care and I'm really capable. And there's lots

00:07:41.810 --> 00:07:44.550
of different signals that we can send, like,

00:07:44.550 --> 00:07:47.160
you know, in terms of caring. I talk about this

00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:49.220
in the book, like smiling is a signal. When someone

00:07:49.220 --> 00:07:51.259
smiles at you, you think, oh, their intentions

00:07:51.259 --> 00:07:54.439
are good, right? They like me. They're in a good

00:07:54.439 --> 00:07:56.860
mood. They're going to be fun to interact with.

00:07:57.160 --> 00:07:59.259
If someone's scowling or frowning, you might

00:07:59.259 --> 00:08:02.120
think, they don't like me. They're not a person

00:08:02.120 --> 00:08:05.060
I want to engage with. Complimenting somebody

00:08:05.060 --> 00:08:09.860
is a signal that you care. There's so many different

00:08:09.860 --> 00:08:12.399
signals. And then we have signals about how capable

00:08:12.399 --> 00:08:15.720
we are. Maybe it is a credential that we have.

00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:19.319
Maybe it is a form of expertise. Maybe it is

00:08:19.319 --> 00:08:22.500
we are a fast talker. And when people ask questions,

00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:24.740
we can respond to them really quickly without

00:08:24.740 --> 00:08:26.300
hesitation. And people think, oh, you didn't

00:08:26.300 --> 00:08:27.740
even have to think about that for a second. You

00:08:27.740 --> 00:08:29.319
must really know what you're talking about. So

00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:31.279
the brain is picking up on all different kinds

00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:33.039
of things. And what I help people understand

00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:36.159
is what does the brain pay attention to? And

00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:38.659
then what are your authentic signals that you

00:08:38.659 --> 00:08:42.509
really like to send so that You're sending the

00:08:42.509 --> 00:08:44.169
signals that are going to get you rewarded and

00:08:44.169 --> 00:08:46.909
you're not unintentionally doing things that

00:08:46.909 --> 00:08:48.909
are sending the wrong message, which sometimes

00:08:48.909 --> 00:08:51.230
we do, including myself. That's interesting.

00:08:51.529 --> 00:08:55.190
We've spent so many past episodes where building

00:08:55.190 --> 00:08:57.970
your personal brand comes up, right? What's your

00:08:57.970 --> 00:09:00.029
brand? What's your image? How do people describe

00:09:00.029 --> 00:09:02.809
you when you're not in the room? I never really

00:09:02.809 --> 00:09:05.129
thought about how that influences or impacts

00:09:05.129 --> 00:09:07.169
the status piece, but that's all about being

00:09:07.169 --> 00:09:10.460
intentional of how you show up. That's right.

00:09:10.580 --> 00:09:12.379
So brand is very related. I always say if I were

00:09:12.379 --> 00:09:13.840
a marketing professor, I would talk about it

00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:15.600
as brand, but I'm a psychologist. I talk about

00:09:15.600 --> 00:09:19.059
it as status. The idea is that elements of, the

00:09:19.059 --> 00:09:21.039
kinds of elements of brand that people generally

00:09:21.039 --> 00:09:23.460
want are ones that are associated with status,

00:09:23.460 --> 00:09:25.179
right? No one's saying like, I really want my

00:09:25.179 --> 00:09:28.759
brands to be difficult and hostile. Like no one

00:09:28.759 --> 00:09:30.320
goes, no one puts that on their vision board,

00:09:30.340 --> 00:09:33.440
right? Your brand is people, the brands that

00:09:33.440 --> 00:09:35.519
people desire are going to be high status brands.

00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:39.830
Like I want people to say some version that I

00:09:39.830 --> 00:09:43.309
care deeply about people other than myself, and

00:09:43.309 --> 00:09:47.330
that I add value to the world. The characteristics

00:09:47.330 --> 00:09:51.409
themselves might differ. Humorous is very much

00:09:51.409 --> 00:09:53.649
part of my brand. Not everyone would pick that,

00:09:53.750 --> 00:09:58.149
but with humor, right? Humor is a mark of intellect

00:09:58.149 --> 00:10:01.490
because it's hard to make people laugh. It's

00:10:01.490 --> 00:10:05.710
also a mark of caring, that you're bringing a

00:10:05.710 --> 00:10:09.350
fun atmosphere and creating that. You can have

00:10:09.350 --> 00:10:13.730
different brands that are authentic to you, but

00:10:13.730 --> 00:10:16.230
a good brand is going to be one that's going

00:10:16.230 --> 00:10:18.970
to hit in your own way on both of those dimensions,

00:10:19.049 --> 00:10:21.149
that it's going to signal to people, this is

00:10:21.149 --> 00:10:22.649
a person that really cares and this is a person

00:10:22.649 --> 00:10:24.909
that can deliver results. Well, that's a good

00:10:24.909 --> 00:10:27.470
point about being authentic, essentially, right?

00:10:27.649 --> 00:10:31.009
So if being empathetic and caring doesn't come

00:10:31.009 --> 00:10:33.110
naturally, is that something that you can work

00:10:33.110 --> 00:10:36.090
on improving and be genuine about it? I would

00:10:36.090 --> 00:10:38.169
say to people, if you don't actually care about

00:10:38.169 --> 00:10:39.850
anybody other than yourself, life's gonna be

00:10:39.850 --> 00:10:42.610
pretty hard. But most people I encounter do care

00:10:42.610 --> 00:10:44.970
about people. Now what they might not be is good

00:10:44.970 --> 00:10:47.070
at showing it. And that's where you just have

00:10:47.070 --> 00:10:50.149
to experiment a bit with what's your signals

00:10:50.149 --> 00:10:52.610
that you're going to send that are gonna show

00:10:52.610 --> 00:10:55.389
over the world how truthfully caring you actually

00:10:55.389 --> 00:10:59.830
are. And I think that's the real key is finding

00:10:59.830 --> 00:11:03.590
your signal. So I talk a lot in the book that

00:11:03.590 --> 00:11:06.340
I'm not a good smiler. I probably look okay right

00:11:06.340 --> 00:11:08.879
now, but when I see pictures of myself on stage

00:11:08.879 --> 00:11:12.080
speaking, as I often do, I have yet to find one

00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:15.820
usable action shot in over 20 years of being

00:11:15.820 --> 00:11:18.860
a speaker because I have the same growly look

00:11:18.860 --> 00:11:21.740
on my face every single time. Okay, I'm not a

00:11:21.740 --> 00:11:23.840
good smiler. You don't have to convince me that

00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:26.460
I am. I already understand that I'm not. That's

00:11:26.460 --> 00:11:31.340
okay. Smiling is a signal of warmth. Like scowling

00:11:31.340 --> 00:11:35.809
is not. So my Natural nonverbal expression is

00:11:35.809 --> 00:11:39.049
not doing me any favors. And that's okay. But

00:11:39.049 --> 00:11:41.929
if I'm aware of it, I really don't want people

00:11:41.929 --> 00:11:44.409
to think I might agree with them because I just

00:11:44.409 --> 00:11:48.070
this is how my face is shaped. So I have to figure

00:11:48.070 --> 00:11:50.629
out my work around. And so I think what am I

00:11:50.629 --> 00:11:52.429
good at? I'm good at using my words to make people

00:11:52.429 --> 00:11:54.970
feel good, to compliment them, to help them,

00:11:55.190 --> 00:11:58.090
to celebrate them, those things. And so that's

00:11:58.090 --> 00:12:00.809
what I do. And so I do think that I have cultivated

00:12:00.809 --> 00:12:04.379
a brand. as someone is very warm, very approachable,

00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:06.740
very friendly, very caring, but I do not do it

00:12:06.740 --> 00:12:09.000
through my facial expressions. I have to do it

00:12:09.000 --> 00:12:11.360
in other ways. And that's the idea of you can

00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:14.440
go for the same outcome, but you can approach

00:12:14.440 --> 00:12:17.120
it your way. So what I will say to people when

00:12:17.120 --> 00:12:19.279
they're struggling with how to show empathy,

00:12:19.460 --> 00:12:21.759
warmth, caring is like, what is your favorite

00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:24.460
way to show people that you care about them?

00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:26.559
And then let's figure out ways you can lean into

00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:29.059
that more because that's going to feel good to

00:12:29.059 --> 00:12:31.629
you because it's really authentic. and it's going

00:12:31.629 --> 00:12:34.250
to be really effective. Oh, I love that. That's

00:12:34.250 --> 00:12:36.450
so true. Some people are just more natural to

00:12:36.450 --> 00:12:40.210
smiling, like laughing, whatever, very warm behavior.

00:12:40.710 --> 00:12:43.309
And there's, I know my friends, co -workers who

00:12:43.309 --> 00:12:45.450
aren't, but it wasn't because they're on a message,

00:12:45.509 --> 00:12:47.909
just how they portray that. So I love finding

00:12:47.909 --> 00:12:50.669
what makes sense for you, what's comfortable,

00:12:50.830 --> 00:12:53.450
right? When you're fake smiling and you're fake

00:12:53.450 --> 00:12:56.710
laughing, everybody sees through that. So trying

00:12:56.710 --> 00:12:59.399
to really embrace what you're good at. So how

00:12:59.399 --> 00:13:01.080
do you balance, especially I think as women,

00:13:01.340 --> 00:13:03.539
because as I mentioned, I experienced this earlier

00:13:03.539 --> 00:13:05.039
in my career, I've seen other women struggle

00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:07.519
with this, where you want to be nice, you want

00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:08.860
people to think you're nice, but you don't want

00:13:08.860 --> 00:13:11.759
them to think you're a pushover or that you don't

00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:13.279
know what you're doing and like, oh, yeah, she's

00:13:13.279 --> 00:13:15.899
nice, but she's not competent. So how do we build

00:13:15.899 --> 00:13:18.600
that other half of this? That is where I think

00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:23.139
experimenting with forms of nice that also showcase

00:13:23.139 --> 00:13:26.039
competence. Because the best thing is if you

00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:29.480
can show up as both at all times, then you're

00:13:29.480 --> 00:13:32.159
hitting all the bases, right? You're signaling

00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:35.720
that you're all the things. So there are some

00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:38.879
forms of being nice that showcase your confidence.

00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:41.519
There are other forms of being nice that have

00:13:41.519 --> 00:13:43.559
no impact and there are some that actually decrease

00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:45.299
your competence. So you have to think about this.

00:13:45.340 --> 00:13:48.860
So an example would be like, if I buy you a coffee,

00:13:49.340 --> 00:13:52.120
that's a nice thing to do. Doesn't showcase me

00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:54.399
as particularly competent, but it doesn't undermine

00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:56.980
my competence either, right? It's just a neutrally

00:13:56.980 --> 00:14:01.480
nice behavior. If I Self -deprecate if I say

00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:04.059
that I'm bad at something and I cut myself down

00:14:04.059 --> 00:14:07.419
now That is also warm in the sense that it's

00:14:07.419 --> 00:14:10.620
humble. It's modest It's sometimes self -deprecating

00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:13.360
can actually be funny Comedians often do it and

00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:15.279
so all of those things can increase your warmth

00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:18.259
But those come at an expense you're seen as less

00:14:18.259 --> 00:14:19.899
capable because you've just told people you're

00:14:19.899 --> 00:14:22.279
not good at stuff So that could be a dangerous

00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:24.559
form of warm. It's maybe worse than buying a

00:14:24.559 --> 00:14:27.039
coffee but then better than buying a coffee would

00:14:27.039 --> 00:14:29.889
be something like making an introduction to somebody.

00:14:30.470 --> 00:14:33.429
If I introduce you to a great podcast guest,

00:14:33.570 --> 00:14:34.649
you're like, you know who I really like to have

00:14:34.649 --> 00:14:37.350
on my podcast, Allison? So I think I can introduce

00:14:37.350 --> 00:14:40.049
you. You'd be like, oh my gosh, that's so nice.

00:14:40.269 --> 00:14:42.269
It's a warm behavior. It's really friendly. But

00:14:42.269 --> 00:14:44.830
wait, it also, more than buying a coffee, it

00:14:44.830 --> 00:14:48.149
allows me to show up as unique in the sense that

00:14:48.149 --> 00:14:50.350
I have a network, a relationship web that you

00:14:50.350 --> 00:14:53.190
don't have. So what I encourage people to think

00:14:53.190 --> 00:14:58.169
about is how to be cognizant of their behaviors

00:14:58.169 --> 00:15:00.850
and evaluate how they are, how much those behaviors

00:15:00.850 --> 00:15:04.789
showcase that other dimension. So I try to help

00:15:04.789 --> 00:15:08.750
people go move away from behaviors that are one

00:15:08.750 --> 00:15:13.389
at the other's expense. So if I am kind of angry

00:15:13.389 --> 00:15:16.429
and hostile, I might, and I'm like, I'm like

00:15:16.429 --> 00:15:18.789
really like very strict and stern. I might be

00:15:18.789 --> 00:15:20.909
able to like drive results and get people better

00:15:20.909 --> 00:15:24.330
at the expense of being liked. And if I'm self

00:15:24.330 --> 00:15:25.970
-deprecating and cutting myself down, everyone

00:15:25.970 --> 00:15:27.769
likes me, but nobody thinks I can drive results.

00:15:28.169 --> 00:15:29.950
So looking for ones that are going to hit on

00:15:29.950 --> 00:15:33.730
both, or for example, if I'm buying someone's

00:15:33.730 --> 00:15:36.190
coffee, I'd say, okay. That's a nice thing to

00:15:36.190 --> 00:15:38.029
do. So in their brain, I've probably checked

00:15:38.029 --> 00:15:40.250
the box, like being nice, but I haven't checked

00:15:40.250 --> 00:15:43.110
the box yet of being capable. What could I say

00:15:43.110 --> 00:15:45.850
or do or talk about that they would also recognize

00:15:45.850 --> 00:15:48.330
me as being both of those things? So once you

00:15:48.330 --> 00:15:50.250
start to recognize that there are two dimensions,

00:15:50.889 --> 00:15:52.710
you can start to evaluate how you're showing

00:15:52.710 --> 00:15:56.830
up and say, okay, if I'm showing up well on one

00:15:56.830 --> 00:15:58.269
dimension, but I haven't really done anything

00:15:58.269 --> 00:16:00.590
on the other one, what can I do to lean into

00:16:00.590 --> 00:16:03.659
it? or if I have something like in my case, you're

00:16:03.659 --> 00:16:07.059
a bad smiler, you actually look unfriendly, you

00:16:07.059 --> 00:16:09.759
look angry, you have to compensate a little bit.

00:16:09.820 --> 00:16:11.960
What else could you do? So that's how you can

00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:14.639
start to think about it because you are a multi

00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:17.120
-channel form of communication. You have lots

00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:18.919
of different signals you send and you just want

00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:21.399
to be aware of what are they so that what I'm

00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:24.860
sending to a person's brain is representing the

00:16:24.860 --> 00:16:27.750
full spectrum of all the value that I have. No,

00:16:27.750 --> 00:16:29.850
that makes sense. And when you're at the other

00:16:29.850 --> 00:16:31.529
end of the spectrum, like I'm saying, if you're

00:16:31.529 --> 00:16:33.710
too nice and you're too kind, you're not taken

00:16:33.710 --> 00:16:36.129
serious. And there's the other end, I think,

00:16:36.590 --> 00:16:39.370
when women are difficult or too intimidating

00:16:39.370 --> 00:16:42.169
or intense. So it's like, I don't know, is there

00:16:42.169 --> 00:16:44.070
a way to kind of pull that back or is it still

00:16:44.070 --> 00:16:46.029
the same approach to just, hey, you're trying

00:16:46.029 --> 00:16:47.429
to get to the middle, right? You don't want to

00:16:47.429 --> 00:16:49.789
be at either end of the spectrum. Okay. So this

00:16:49.789 --> 00:16:52.230
is one thing I want to say. People often think

00:16:52.230 --> 00:16:55.419
about these things as a single dimension. there's

00:16:55.419 --> 00:16:57.279
being assertive on one end and being nice on

00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:00.259
the other. But in the book I show, there are

00:17:00.259 --> 00:17:01.980
actually two dimensions, like an x -axis and

00:17:01.980 --> 00:17:04.720
a y -axis. So that's a really important mental

00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:06.619
shift because if you think they're one dimension,

00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:08.819
you always think you're trading one off against

00:17:08.819 --> 00:17:12.559
the other. But sometimes you might choose to

00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:14.400
be doing that, but you don't necessarily have

00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:16.819
to. So that's the first thing is a lot of times

00:17:16.819 --> 00:17:19.440
people are given feedback that you're too, let's

00:17:19.440 --> 00:17:22.160
say too nice. And I would say that I understand

00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:24.500
where that feedback comes from. But let's break

00:17:24.500 --> 00:17:26.640
it down. Was that feedback meant to be intended

00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:29.200
to be literal? Meaning, what I actually would

00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:31.359
like from you is some more meanness, please.

00:17:31.480 --> 00:17:33.980
Could you be a little bit more unkind and cruel?

00:17:34.359 --> 00:17:36.940
No one's actually saying that. Even though their

00:17:36.940 --> 00:17:40.980
words are too nice, they're not saying, like,

00:17:41.059 --> 00:17:43.119
someone once said, like, should I stop saying

00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:45.000
please and thank you? I've been told I'm too

00:17:45.000 --> 00:17:47.339
nice. And the manager was like, that's a terrible

00:17:47.339 --> 00:17:49.799
idea. That's not what people want you to do.

00:17:50.180 --> 00:17:51.579
People don't want you to, like, slap something

00:17:51.579 --> 00:17:54.539
on their desk and be like, do it. But what they

00:17:54.539 --> 00:17:56.480
are trying to tell you something and what they're

00:17:56.480 --> 00:17:58.519
trying to tell you normally is you're not showing

00:17:58.519 --> 00:18:01.420
up strong enough on the other dimension. So when

00:18:01.420 --> 00:18:02.740
people say you're too nice, what they're saying

00:18:02.740 --> 00:18:04.859
is I'm not seeing enough capability and results

00:18:04.859 --> 00:18:08.599
orientation. And so I would say don't pull back

00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:11.420
on being nice, but think about I need to show

00:18:11.420 --> 00:18:13.700
you that I'm the other thing as well. And I can

00:18:13.700 --> 00:18:16.619
lean into. how assertive, competent, capable

00:18:16.619 --> 00:18:18.779
results oriented I have. Similar thing, if someone

00:18:18.779 --> 00:18:21.000
says, you're too assertive, you're too aggressive,

00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:22.839
you're too opinionated, you're too that, they're

00:18:22.839 --> 00:18:25.220
saying, I'm getting lots of assertiveness from

00:18:25.220 --> 00:18:27.920
you here. Like you're really excelling, but I'm

00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:30.000
not getting anything on the piece that you care.

00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:32.799
And so I would tell people, it's not about being

00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:36.559
less opinionated or less confident. It's what

00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:38.140
they're saying is they're not seeing anything

00:18:38.140 --> 00:18:40.019
on the other dimension. How do we show them that

00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:43.259
you really care? So I think the answer is when

00:18:43.259 --> 00:18:46.799
you get the too much feedback, the instinct is

00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.579
pull back. What I want to say is, no, no, no,

00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:52.859
amplify the other dimension. What they're telling

00:18:52.859 --> 00:18:55.099
you is you've got that first dimension, down

00:18:55.099 --> 00:18:58.680
cold. Check it off. You've got it. Amplify. And

00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:01.240
I call it adding, not subtracting. That is such

00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:02.920
great advice. And as you're saying that, not

00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:05.559
that I'm perfect, but I can think of people in

00:19:05.559 --> 00:19:08.180
my life that I worked with, and especially one

00:19:08.180 --> 00:19:10.339
that Everybody would say it was too nice. Oh,

00:19:10.460 --> 00:19:13.180
she's, she's so nice. She's too nice. But that

00:19:13.180 --> 00:19:16.220
caused her to not be assertive, not to give her

00:19:16.220 --> 00:19:19.119
opinion, not provide feedback, you know, and

00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:22.079
sort of that couching every piece of advice she'd

00:19:22.079 --> 00:19:24.319
give us like, Oh, I'm not sure. Or like, she

00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:27.160
just was so afraid to hurt other people's feelings,

00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:29.680
obviously lacked confidence, but you're right.

00:19:29.759 --> 00:19:32.819
It wasn't about her being too nice. It was just

00:19:32.819 --> 00:19:35.329
her getting more comfortable with. giving feedback,

00:19:35.569 --> 00:19:39.230
saying no, having boundaries, whatever it is.

00:19:39.490 --> 00:19:41.269
That's a really interesting way to look at it,

00:19:41.309 --> 00:19:44.049
which I never did. So thank you for that. Of

00:19:44.049 --> 00:19:47.230
course. So is there any myth that you love to

00:19:47.230 --> 00:19:51.029
bust about being too nice or being respected

00:19:51.029 --> 00:19:53.329
or anything along that that you've learned through

00:19:53.329 --> 00:19:55.710
writing this and all the research? Well, this

00:19:55.710 --> 00:19:57.970
is, I think, the main one we just covered, which

00:19:57.970 --> 00:20:00.349
is that it's an either or. Right? And so many

00:20:00.349 --> 00:20:02.930
people try to approach it that way. And I say,

00:20:02.930 --> 00:20:05.549
no, no, no. You can be both. Lots of people are

00:20:05.549 --> 00:20:07.769
both. You have people that you respect like this.

00:20:08.049 --> 00:20:12.029
And to really lean into adding things into how

00:20:12.029 --> 00:20:15.210
you show up rather than subtract. Because subtracting

00:20:15.210 --> 00:20:17.369
is one, not only less effective, it also feels

00:20:17.369 --> 00:20:20.509
way less authentic. When you are told that you're

00:20:20.509 --> 00:20:21.730
too much of anything and then you have to feel

00:20:21.730 --> 00:20:23.730
like you have to hide it, that's called emotional

00:20:23.730 --> 00:20:26.869
labor. It takes work. It leads to burnout. It

00:20:26.869 --> 00:20:30.000
leads to resentment. and it makes you feel like

00:20:30.000 --> 00:20:32.619
you are not getting to be your true self. When

00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:35.220
you have to add something in, it feels a lot

00:20:35.220 --> 00:20:37.400
more authentic. So I really do think that this

00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:40.880
is the key myth that I spend a lot of time debunking

00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:44.319
because it's such a natural tendency to take

00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:47.019
people at their word. You said I was to something,

00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:50.079
so I will be less of that thing. It sounds logical.

00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:52.180
It's just when you play it out, you realize,

00:20:52.299 --> 00:20:53.819
wait, wait, wait, wait, that's not exactly what

00:20:53.819 --> 00:20:55.180
they were trying to tell me. They just didn't

00:20:55.180 --> 00:20:56.730
have the words for it. I don't know if that makes

00:20:56.730 --> 00:20:59.509
sense. So when you think about certain difficult

00:20:59.509 --> 00:21:02.930
situations like negotiations, self -promotion,

00:21:03.089 --> 00:21:06.170
even difficult conversations, is there any language

00:21:06.170 --> 00:21:08.369
or any approaches that are helpful when we're

00:21:08.369 --> 00:21:10.490
trying to be that like, well, badass, but be

00:21:10.490 --> 00:21:12.390
in these challenging situations, whether, like

00:21:12.390 --> 00:21:14.809
I said, negotiation, self -promotion, difficult

00:21:14.809 --> 00:21:17.170
conversations, any advice on how to handle those?

00:21:17.990 --> 00:21:20.210
Yeah. So I do talk a lot about self -promotion

00:21:20.210 --> 00:21:23.640
in the book and in general because We are the

00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:26.339
most informed, motivated channel of communication

00:21:26.339 --> 00:21:29.000
about ourselves that exists. No one knows us

00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:30.819
better than us. No one cares about us more than

00:21:30.819 --> 00:21:33.400
us. So if we are not telling our story, how would

00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:36.059
people even know it? I mean, with so many aspects

00:21:36.059 --> 00:21:38.259
of who I am, you would have no way of knowing

00:21:38.259 --> 00:21:40.900
unless I gave them to you. So we have to tell

00:21:40.900 --> 00:21:44.539
our story. That is self -promotion. But the way

00:21:44.539 --> 00:21:47.339
to self -promote well is to do it where it hits

00:21:47.339 --> 00:21:49.339
on both of these dimensions. Self -promotion

00:21:49.339 --> 00:21:52.579
is obviously a win on the like capability. If

00:21:52.579 --> 00:21:54.980
I tell you I'm great, then you're more likely

00:21:54.980 --> 00:21:57.779
to think I'm great. But it's a threat on the

00:21:57.779 --> 00:21:59.440
warmth, right? Are you going to like me? Maybe

00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:02.759
I'm not modest or humble. And so that's where

00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:05.119
the tension of self -promoting comes in, is I

00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.759
want to be both, and I can't figure out how to

00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:10.839
self -promote and be warm. So I talk about a

00:22:10.839 --> 00:22:12.680
variety of research -based strategies, and you

00:22:12.680 --> 00:22:14.940
don't have to do all of them, but find something

00:22:14.940 --> 00:22:17.059
that makes you feel comfortable telling your

00:22:17.059 --> 00:22:19.960
own story. One of them is what's called dual

00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:22.519
promotion. I often refer to it as brag and thank,

00:22:22.619 --> 00:22:24.539
which is you say something good about yourself

00:22:24.539 --> 00:22:26.839
and then you offer thanks for someone else that

00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:29.380
played a role. Okay? I promote me and I promote

00:22:29.380 --> 00:22:32.799
you. Now, I am not self -deprecating. I am not

00:22:32.799 --> 00:22:35.279
saying, oh, no, no, no, no, no, I didn't do anything.

00:22:35.420 --> 00:22:38.440
It was all Betsy. That's self -deprecation. Dual

00:22:38.440 --> 00:22:43.339
promotion is I achieved this great outcome and

00:22:43.339 --> 00:22:46.500
special thanks go to following people who played

00:22:46.500 --> 00:22:48.380
a role. So let's say your podcast gets an award.

00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:50.740
and you would say, I was really honored to get

00:22:50.740 --> 00:22:54.599
this award. And I want to thank these, like the

00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:56.240
producers are the editors who help me behind

00:22:56.240 --> 00:22:58.680
the scenes. I want to thank a lot of guests who

00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:01.819
have come onto my show and you can name a few

00:23:01.819 --> 00:23:03.960
of them or whatever. When you do that, you're

00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:06.140
taking the credit, but then you're also giving

00:23:06.140 --> 00:23:08.980
credit to somebody else. And what the research

00:23:08.980 --> 00:23:11.480
shows is that when you take the credit, I did

00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:15.200
a good thing. You are seen as more capable. And

00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:16.819
when you give some credit to somebody else, you're

00:23:16.819 --> 00:23:19.539
also seen as more warm. So that's a good way

00:23:19.539 --> 00:23:22.059
to check a box and that can be used in a lot

00:23:22.059 --> 00:23:23.920
of different things. You could use it on social

00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:27.039
media. You could use it in a weekly update email

00:23:27.039 --> 00:23:28.859
that you might send to your boss or other people

00:23:28.859 --> 00:23:31.599
at work. Hey, here's what's happened on our team

00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:34.220
this week. I'm just filling you in. Here's the

00:23:34.220 --> 00:23:37.380
wins and special thanks go to people AVMC. You

00:23:37.380 --> 00:23:39.380
could use it in a meeting at the beginning where

00:23:39.380 --> 00:23:41.700
you celebrate something that's happened and thank

00:23:41.700 --> 00:23:44.339
people for the role that they played. So that's

00:23:44.339 --> 00:23:47.720
one example of how you can use science. and bring

00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:50.680
it into your everyday behaviors and say, hey,

00:23:50.859 --> 00:23:52.940
every time there's something I want to shout

00:23:52.940 --> 00:23:55.259
from the rooftops that I did well, let me shout

00:23:55.259 --> 00:23:57.839
it. And also give a shout out to someone else.

00:23:57.859 --> 00:24:00.640
And when I do that, I'll be hitting on both of

00:24:00.640 --> 00:24:03.839
those important dimensions. With negotiation,

00:24:03.940 --> 00:24:06.759
for example, I have a whole chapter in the book

00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:08.619
on negotiations that are other techniques you

00:24:08.619 --> 00:24:12.359
can use. So one specific one is giving people

00:24:12.359 --> 00:24:15.019
multiple options. So I'm a parent. I have three

00:24:15.019 --> 00:24:18.240
kids. parenting, at least in today's day and

00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:20.579
age, is very much one of giving people control,

00:24:20.640 --> 00:24:23.140
giving kids controlled choices. So I was born

00:24:23.140 --> 00:24:25.900
in the 70s. My dad was like, here's how you're

00:24:25.900 --> 00:24:27.720
going to do it. There will be no questions that,

00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:30.500
you know, that is what it is. But of course,

00:24:30.579 --> 00:24:32.420
I'm like, no, no, no, that's too strict. I want

00:24:32.420 --> 00:24:35.160
my kids to see how much I care about them and

00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.619
build these relationships. But I can't have the

00:24:37.619 --> 00:24:39.259
inmates run this prison, right? There has to

00:24:39.259 --> 00:24:41.900
be some control. So I'm going to give my kids

00:24:41.900 --> 00:24:45.819
a curated set of choices, like, OK, Which of

00:24:45.819 --> 00:24:48.000
the three very healthy dinner options would you

00:24:48.000 --> 00:24:51.259
like for dinners? You can pick, right? But you

00:24:51.259 --> 00:24:53.559
don't get to pick like pizza or burgers or ice

00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:55.380
cream, like you can pick like the chicken or

00:24:55.380 --> 00:24:58.680
the fish or whatever. So when I do that, what

00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:02.740
am I trying to do? I am trying to show them that

00:25:02.740 --> 00:25:04.480
I care because when you give people choices,

00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:07.299
what the brain thinks is, oh, you must care about

00:25:07.299 --> 00:25:10.279
me because you're giving me some say. But at

00:25:10.279 --> 00:25:13.180
the same time, I'm also being able to assert

00:25:13.180 --> 00:25:16.119
my own interests in this by saying the choices

00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:19.519
are confined to things that are good for me.

00:25:20.059 --> 00:25:22.019
So that's an example that we see evidence in

00:25:22.019 --> 00:25:24.160
the negotiation research is when we negotiate

00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:25.819
with people and getting your kid to eat dinner

00:25:25.819 --> 00:25:28.380
is just as much negotiation as like buying and

00:25:28.380 --> 00:25:30.920
selling products. When we negotiate with people,

00:25:31.119 --> 00:25:32.539
they're going to like us more. They're going

00:25:32.539 --> 00:25:34.359
to feel like we're more warm and caring when

00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:37.400
we give them choices. but we can also be assertive

00:25:37.400 --> 00:25:41.859
and drive our own outcomes. So rather than make

00:25:41.859 --> 00:25:44.359
one offer, the idea of making three simultaneous

00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:46.119
offers, like you can have these three different

00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:48.819
dinners, is a very specific negotiation technique

00:25:48.819 --> 00:25:52.099
that can be used by anyone, particularly women,

00:25:52.519 --> 00:25:54.039
to say, hey, I'm going to show you how much I

00:25:54.039 --> 00:25:56.480
care by giving you these options, but I'm also

00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:58.299
not going to sacrifice myself in the process

00:25:58.299 --> 00:26:00.819
because the options are all good for me. So those

00:26:00.819 --> 00:26:03.039
are techniques that I help people recognize where

00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:06.380
they can bring I care and I'm capable together

00:26:06.380 --> 00:26:08.380
rather than have to play one off against the

00:26:08.380 --> 00:26:10.160
other. I like that. Because it has a little bit

00:26:10.160 --> 00:26:13.940
of control, right? Still involved is what I think

00:26:13.940 --> 00:26:16.259
the basis of it is. But people feel like they

00:26:16.259 --> 00:26:19.059
have an opinion, their values. So that makes

00:26:19.059 --> 00:26:21.799
complete sense. What about with a difficult conversation?

00:26:21.920 --> 00:26:23.759
I think sometimes that's where people are going

00:26:23.759 --> 00:26:26.680
way too hard or too soft. So how do we handle

00:26:26.680 --> 00:26:28.960
those difficult conversations? The first thing

00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:32.480
is, yes, in that moment of the difficult conversation,

00:26:32.619 --> 00:26:34.660
If you can take a pause and think, I need to

00:26:34.660 --> 00:26:38.019
convey to this person two things. I need to convey

00:26:38.019 --> 00:26:41.539
that I really care, and I need to convey that

00:26:41.539 --> 00:26:44.400
I know what I'm talking about. Because if they

00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:46.160
believe those two things, they're much more likely,

00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:47.759
even though it's difficult, to listen to me.

00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.779
If they think I only care about myself, they're

00:26:50.779 --> 00:26:52.279
not going to listen. They're going to shut down.

00:26:52.859 --> 00:26:54.660
And if they think that whatever I'm telling them

00:26:54.660 --> 00:26:57.299
is wrong, they're also going to shut down. So

00:26:57.299 --> 00:26:59.960
how do I convey that I'm right? and that I care.

00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:01.700
And I think about this a lot with my kids is

00:27:01.700 --> 00:27:04.039
another example. Like, right, if they're not

00:27:04.039 --> 00:27:06.160
going to listen to you, if they don't think those

00:27:06.160 --> 00:27:07.700
two things are true, they have to believe you

00:27:07.700 --> 00:27:09.539
have their best interests at heart. And they

00:27:09.539 --> 00:27:11.819
have to believe that you actually know something

00:27:11.819 --> 00:27:14.519
that you're right. So I would think about how

00:27:14.519 --> 00:27:17.140
do I convey those two things in this conversation?

00:27:17.740 --> 00:27:22.440
So that's the first. The second thing is relationships,

00:27:22.480 --> 00:27:24.160
like if you're going to have a difficult conversation,

00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:25.759
it's probably not somebody you're only going

00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:28.089
to talk to this one time. that relationship had

00:27:28.089 --> 00:27:30.630
a past before we got to this point, and that

00:27:30.630 --> 00:27:32.130
relationship is simply going to have a future

00:27:32.130 --> 00:27:35.089
after this conversation. And it's important that

00:27:35.089 --> 00:27:37.509
you use all of the past, the present, the future

00:27:37.509 --> 00:27:41.190
to set yourself up for success. So the present

00:27:41.190 --> 00:27:43.089
I just talked about, which is what can I say

00:27:43.089 --> 00:27:45.529
in this moment that conveys to you that I care

00:27:45.529 --> 00:27:47.910
and I know what I'm talking about. But I also

00:27:47.910 --> 00:27:50.269
help people think about the past. I always tell

00:27:50.269 --> 00:27:52.990
people, like, you don't exactly know what difficult

00:27:52.990 --> 00:27:54.869
conversation you're going to have and with whom.

00:27:55.049 --> 00:27:57.089
But you know they're going to come up, you're

00:27:57.089 --> 00:27:58.490
going to have a conflict, you're going to need

00:27:58.490 --> 00:28:01.309
to drive results. So what I tell people is, from

00:28:01.309 --> 00:28:04.029
the second you come into someone's life, you

00:28:04.029 --> 00:28:05.970
should be thinking about all the easy ways you

00:28:05.970 --> 00:28:09.210
can build your respect with them. Because if

00:28:09.210 --> 00:28:11.789
the difficult conversation does arise, wouldn't

00:28:11.789 --> 00:28:14.089
you like it to be from a place where that person

00:28:14.089 --> 00:28:17.009
already says, I really respect you? It's going

00:28:17.009 --> 00:28:19.410
to make the whole thing a lot easier. So we should

00:28:19.410 --> 00:28:22.289
have been using our past with everybody to set

00:28:22.289 --> 00:28:25.019
ourselves up for success in this moment. And

00:28:25.019 --> 00:28:27.720
then we also have a future. Sometimes you might

00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:30.579
say, Hey, I messed up. I didn't, I went in and

00:28:30.579 --> 00:28:33.000
I was way too harsh or I was way too self, whatever

00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:35.500
it is. We're not perfect. And then I would say,

00:28:35.619 --> 00:28:37.180
okay, let's say you had to give somebody some

00:28:37.180 --> 00:28:39.720
really critical feedback and it was going to

00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:41.380
hurt. And you're going to say you didn't do a

00:28:41.380 --> 00:28:43.859
good job. And they're going to, in that moment,

00:28:44.019 --> 00:28:45.680
feel like you don't really care about them. And

00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:48.680
they're going to be disappointed. Well, what's

00:28:48.680 --> 00:28:52.660
the future? What can you do tomorrow? to help

00:28:52.660 --> 00:28:55.900
authentically show them that you do care. Could

00:28:55.900 --> 00:28:58.019
you be genuinely complimentary about something

00:28:58.019 --> 00:28:59.579
they're doing? Could you create an opportunity

00:28:59.579 --> 00:29:03.299
for them? Could you compliment them to somebody

00:29:03.299 --> 00:29:05.920
else, something like this? So that's how I think

00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:08.380
about these relationships is they're more than

00:29:08.380 --> 00:29:10.640
just the moment in time. Yes, you can do a better

00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:13.640
or worse job in that moment, but don't over -focus

00:29:13.640 --> 00:29:16.319
on the moment and forget about all these other...

00:29:16.039 --> 00:29:18.339
signals that you send in that relationship over

00:29:18.339 --> 00:29:21.099
its lifetime. And so, yes, if you leaned in,

00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:23.859
even if it was just like you were really hangry,

00:29:23.880 --> 00:29:26.460
so you just were nasty and you weren't very warm

00:29:26.460 --> 00:29:28.880
in that whole thing. Well, what's tomorrow bring?

00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:31.220
Okay, I need to really lean into my warmth right

00:29:31.220 --> 00:29:33.980
now and show them how much I care because that's

00:29:33.980 --> 00:29:36.140
the part where I've taken a little bit of a hit

00:29:36.140 --> 00:29:38.380
that's in doubt. No, that makes so much sense.

00:29:38.460 --> 00:29:40.019
And you're so right. We get really focused on

00:29:40.019 --> 00:29:42.180
that one moment in time. And there's what happens

00:29:42.180 --> 00:29:45.759
after how... rebound, recover essentially from

00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:47.099
it's going to happen. You're going to have those

00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:49.599
tough conversations with team members, your kids,

00:29:49.819 --> 00:29:52.279
your spouse, you know, whoever it is, but how

00:29:52.279 --> 00:29:55.220
you kind of continue to move on is really the

00:29:55.220 --> 00:29:58.460
next important part. So you mentioned you have

00:29:58.460 --> 00:30:00.740
kids. I have two teen daughters. So a lot of

00:30:00.740 --> 00:30:02.759
times I'm having these conversations. I'm thinking

00:30:02.759 --> 00:30:07.309
how I can help influence impact. support them,

00:30:07.309 --> 00:30:09.630
you know, as they grow. So sometimes they roll

00:30:09.630 --> 00:30:12.009
their eyes at the things I talk about or the

00:30:12.009 --> 00:30:14.430
questions I'll ask them about leadership. But,

00:30:14.609 --> 00:30:16.970
you know, around this topic with your kids, what

00:30:16.970 --> 00:30:20.170
are you trying to instill in them today that

00:30:20.170 --> 00:30:22.309
they, you know, as they grow up will be able

00:30:22.309 --> 00:30:25.349
to lean into? I mean, I think that the only things

00:30:25.349 --> 00:30:29.269
I try to do as an outgrowth of my job as a psychologist

00:30:29.269 --> 00:30:34.609
is to help them think about their audience. And

00:30:34.609 --> 00:30:37.789
a lot of times we give kids messages early in

00:30:37.789 --> 00:30:41.250
life that they should become less concerned about

00:30:41.250 --> 00:30:43.549
their audience. We don't want them to experience

00:30:43.549 --> 00:30:46.089
peer pressure. We don't want them to hurt when

00:30:46.089 --> 00:30:48.730
someone says something unkind. And so we kind

00:30:48.730 --> 00:30:52.730
of tell them in a helpful way or a good, a well

00:30:52.730 --> 00:30:55.130
-intentioned way, hey, don't pay attention to

00:30:55.130 --> 00:30:57.940
that. Like focus on yourself. But in reality,

00:30:58.299 --> 00:31:00.799
that's not the full entirety of the message,

00:31:01.140 --> 00:31:03.079
right? Because a lot of our success depends on

00:31:03.079 --> 00:31:05.900
being able to influence your audience. Like telling

00:31:05.900 --> 00:31:08.640
my kids, hey, you know what? You probably shouldn't

00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:11.180
wait until you have a bad grade on a test to

00:31:11.180 --> 00:31:14.420
ever talk to that teacher. because why wouldn't

00:31:14.420 --> 00:31:16.099
you be building a relationship with that teacher

00:31:16.099 --> 00:31:17.500
all along the way? They're like, but I don't

00:31:17.500 --> 00:31:19.359
need any help. I'm like, that's not the point.

00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:21.880
The point is that's another human being. You

00:31:21.880 --> 00:31:24.460
want that human being to know how much you care

00:31:24.460 --> 00:31:26.759
and to see how capable you are. So that if something

00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:29.579
ever goes wrong, you already have that past.

00:31:29.619 --> 00:31:31.859
Why wouldn't you invest in that? So those kinds

00:31:31.859 --> 00:31:35.039
of ideas of helping them think about paying attention

00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:38.420
to their audience without being, without chasing

00:31:38.420 --> 00:31:41.240
the validation. of that audience. And I think

00:31:41.240 --> 00:31:42.819
that's something that we can start to have a

00:31:42.819 --> 00:31:44.940
more nuanced conversation with our kids about.

00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:47.420
And with anybody that we mentor, whether they're

00:31:47.420 --> 00:31:50.640
biologically related to us or not, of this idea

00:31:50.640 --> 00:31:52.339
of, wait a second, like, think about how that

00:31:52.339 --> 00:31:54.839
other person sees the world. And how do you want

00:31:54.839 --> 00:31:57.599
them to see you? And then how can you show up

00:31:57.599 --> 00:31:59.140
in a way that gets them to see you that way?

00:31:59.160 --> 00:32:01.599
Like, let's start working backward from the point

00:32:01.599 --> 00:32:03.519
of view of our audience. And I think with kids

00:32:03.519 --> 00:32:07.059
in particular, often give them the opposite message.

00:32:07.639 --> 00:32:10.599
But not because we don't understand it's important,

00:32:10.680 --> 00:32:12.539
but we're focused on a bunch of other things

00:32:12.539 --> 00:32:14.859
like the pressure, like the bullying, like the

00:32:14.859 --> 00:32:17.119
unkindness that they get. And then we tell them,

00:32:17.359 --> 00:32:21.359
like, ignore the world. We need to ignore some

00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:24.599
things, but you also need to invest in the right

00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:27.079
kinds of relationships in the right way. Yeah.

00:32:27.220 --> 00:32:28.980
And I don't think you're ever too young to start

00:32:28.980 --> 00:32:31.099
talking about relationships and communication.

00:32:31.299 --> 00:32:32.880
I mean, I think it's something that... a lot

00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:34.640
of adults struggle with, right? So it's if you

00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:36.400
can have those conversations and give them the

00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:38.799
tools and, hey, this is how this happens. And

00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:40.059
yeah, guess what? Not everyone's going to like

00:32:40.059 --> 00:32:42.779
you. That's okay. Like, but this is how you move

00:32:42.779 --> 00:32:45.480
on and you focus on your strengths and surround

00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:47.480
yourself with good people. And that's, you know,

00:32:47.559 --> 00:32:50.319
all we can control essentially. But that's great.

00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:52.660
That's great advice. Well, this is awesome. So

00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:55.160
if people want to find likeable matters, more

00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:56.579
information about you, where can they connect

00:32:56.579 --> 00:32:59.660
with you? The best place for people always to

00:32:59.660 --> 00:33:02.039
start for me is my website, which is my name.

00:33:02.059 --> 00:33:03.799
So that makes it pretty easy to find. And on

00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:05.660
my website, I have a bunch of stuff. There is

00:33:05.660 --> 00:33:08.619
information about me, like all kinds of fun facts,

00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:10.799
bio stuff. There's information about the book.

00:33:11.519 --> 00:33:14.019
There's all the media I've ever done. So podcasts,

00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:16.619
articles, et cetera. You could spend a lot of

00:33:16.619 --> 00:33:19.559
time there. And then there are easy ways to find

00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:22.819
me in these other places where I show up. So

00:33:22.819 --> 00:33:25.619
I do show up on social media, LinkedIn and Instagram

00:33:25.619 --> 00:33:29.250
in particular. And I also show up, I have a newsletter

00:33:29.250 --> 00:33:31.410
called The Upper Hand, which is behavioral science

00:33:31.410 --> 00:33:35.230
to help women excel. And all of those can be

00:33:35.230 --> 00:33:37.410
found as a one -stop shop through the website.

00:33:37.750 --> 00:33:39.529
Awesome. And we'll link that in the show notes

00:33:39.529 --> 00:33:42.049
for sure. I'm sure there's a lot of great information

00:33:42.049 --> 00:33:44.390
and can't wait to see what you do next. Do you

00:33:44.390 --> 00:33:46.809
have plans for after likeable badass or you're

00:33:46.809 --> 00:33:50.549
all in right now on likeable badass? I do a lot

00:33:50.549 --> 00:33:53.250
of speaking and educating for women. And it's

00:33:53.250 --> 00:33:54.630
not always just about the things that were in

00:33:54.630 --> 00:33:57.200
the book, but... That still does keep me very

00:33:57.200 --> 00:34:01.579
busy. 2025 was a year of just like existing with

00:34:01.579 --> 00:34:03.940
this book, new book in the world and bringing

00:34:03.940 --> 00:34:08.039
it to people. I have done that. And then in 2026,

00:34:08.119 --> 00:34:09.820
I'm going to think about like where would I like

00:34:09.820 --> 00:34:11.360
to go next, which might involve another book.

00:34:11.420 --> 00:34:13.320
Maybe it won't. There's no secret there, but

00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:17.150
it's just a, it's a 2026 TBD. Awesome. Well,

00:34:17.170 --> 00:34:19.429
that's exciting. Well, best of luck and I love

00:34:19.429 --> 00:34:21.650
the book and congratulations to you for all your

00:34:21.650 --> 00:34:24.769
success and thank you for helping women be likeable

00:34:24.769 --> 00:34:27.170
badass. That's awesome. Oh my gosh, great to

00:34:27.170 --> 00:34:28.829
talk with you. If you've ever been told you're

00:34:28.829 --> 00:34:31.349
too much of something, here's the reframe I'm

00:34:31.349 --> 00:34:33.730
taking with me. I also made it clear that the

00:34:33.730 --> 00:34:36.409
answer usually isn't to shrink, it's to add.

00:34:36.730 --> 00:34:38.530
When you feel like you have to hide parts of

00:34:38.530 --> 00:34:40.989
yourself, that's emotional labor and it leads

00:34:40.989 --> 00:34:43.590
to burnout and resentment. Adding the right signal

00:34:43.590 --> 00:34:46.769
is not only more effective, it feels more authentic.

00:34:47.409 --> 00:34:49.250
Thanks for listening to Latin Lifted. If this

00:34:49.250 --> 00:34:50.989
episode hit, share it with a woman who needs

00:34:50.989 --> 00:34:52.949
the reminder that she doesn't have to choose

00:34:52.949 --> 00:34:56.469
between being respected and liked. And don't

00:34:56.469 --> 00:34:58.869
forget to pick up Allison's book, Likeable Badass.

00:34:59.170 --> 00:35:01.369
Until next time, stay loud and stay lifted.