The Salary Talk Every Woman Needs to Hear

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Welcome to Loud and Lifted. Today, we're talking

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about something that impacts so many women, but

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still doesn't get talked about nearly enough

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in a real, practical way. And that is self -advocacy

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around pay, promotions, and professional advancement.

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So many women are working hard, taking on more,

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staying loyal, and assuming the right people

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will just notice. But too often, hard work alone

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does not lead to the raise, the recognition or

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opportunity they've earned. This episode is about

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how to change that. I'm joined by Bobna Smith,

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founder of Until There Are Nine, an organization

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focused on helping women advocate for their rightful

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share of compensation, rewards, and career growth.

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Bobna brings both personal experience and deep

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insight to this conversation, and we get into

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the why women often struggle to negotiate, how

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to think differently about compensation conversations,

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what managers need to understand, and how to

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stop leaving money on the table. This one is

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honest, practical, and full of takeaways I wish

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more women learned earlier in their careers,

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including myself. Welcome to Loud and Lifted,

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Bobna. Thank you so much for being here. Thank

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you for having me. Okay. So you are truly living

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a loud and lifted life, helping women advocate

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for promotion, compensation, and confidence for

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asking for what they earn. So we're going to

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get into some tools and tactics that you have.

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But before we do that, Tell us about you and

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how this all came about. Sure. So again, thank

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you for having me. So I wasn't always loud and

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lifted, and it wasn't until much, much later

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in my career, I think 20 -ish years into it,

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where I had a very different... discussion around

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compensation when I was interviewing for a new

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role and actually found that I was able to increase

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my salary substantially. And I wanted to share

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that realization and how other women can do that.

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Love that. Thank you. Thank you for that. So

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tell us what you've been doing. Sure. So I spent

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20 -ish years in marketing, still in the marketing

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industry. And somewhere along the way, as I mentioned,

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I was switching roles in companies. And the recruiter

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asked me, so, Bhavna, what's your number? And

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typically, I had always just kind of accepted

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the offer, never really had a discussion, never

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initiated a discussion, never even thought to

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ask or negotiate for any part of the compensation.

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And when he asked me what's my number, I just

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said, what are you offering? And he gave me the

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range, and it was significantly higher than what

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I would have quoted him, which is I take my salary,

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I add 10 ,000 to 20 ,000, I think pool, I got

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a raise, pat myself on the back, and move forward.

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And when I had that discussion, I realized, wow,

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that was actually almost a 70 % increase in my

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salary. Then came the next bit, which is when

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he gave me the range, I asked myself, well, how

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do I go in and ask for the highest end without,

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again, that feeling of feeling selfish or greedy?

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And I asked a male friend, I said, how would

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you ask? And he was like, what do you mean? You

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just ask. I was like, wow, they really do make

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it super simple, don't they? And I'm sitting

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here worrying about how do I ask? So I wrote

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a very nice email and asked for the highest end

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while maintaining some kind of flexibility of,

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but I'm willing to hear the entire compensation

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package that you have. And they came back with

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pretty much the highest end of the range. And

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I was just... floored i was so excited i'm sharing

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all of this back and forth that i had with the

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recruiter with a friend of mine and she was said

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to me wow that's really good save that for me

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when it's my turn and something in me clicked

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at that point because i always had a few women

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that reached out to me for advice when they were

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looking to interview And, you know, I said, well,

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wouldn't it be neat if I could just start like

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almost like a group chat, you know, and say,

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hey, here's what I said, or tell me what you're

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doing. And I can, you know, we can help you in

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real time. And it wasn't until years later, actually,

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after, you know, during COVID, and we were all

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in lockdown, that I said, you know what, I had

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that idea a few years ago, let me start writing

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down. And I got my verbatims that I shared with

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the recruiter. It ended up turning into kind

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of like a Google Doc playbook of how do you negotiate

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salary? And then it evolved into, well, how do

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you ask for a rager promotion? Like, because

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that's most of our situations. And there was

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how it started with until there are nine. I love

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that. And, you know, we all read about the gender

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pay cap. And we just actually had a episode about

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gender bias, which kind of paid into that. how

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does such gender pay gap happen? Like, what do

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you think drives that? So there's a really great

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report. So when, before Nine started, and actually

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it was what gave me the idea when I started to

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write this playbook, I started to do research

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on the gender pay gap. So, you know, 83, 84 cents

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on the dollar. And I found this really great

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paper from Sarah Jane Glynn. And she had this

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amazing, you know, kind of report on the reasons

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for the pay gap and what we can do about it.

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And she listed several reasons, things that are

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quantifiable. So things like years of experience

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in the industry, race and region certainly play

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a factor. But there are also unexplained reasons.

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And that's a combination of essentially discrimination

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and I think women's own reluctance to ask or

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their negotiating style in a way. So I kind of

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started to read about that and think well, that's

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bullshit like we can fix that You know, I don't

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want to be the reason that I am underpaid So

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I don't you know, we I can't care about what

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other people think of me just because I'm asking

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for You know 10 ,000 20 ,000 or asking questions

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So the pay gap that there's there's so many reasons

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for it, but there are certain things that you

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know are in our control Sure. And I can totally

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relate to that. And there is this uncomfortableness

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or unsettleness when you feel like you're advocating

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or asking for yourself for money. Yeah. Right.

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It's other things or for your company. And I've

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been guilty of that. I think of it early in my

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career. I was at a big corporate organization,

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kept taking on more responsibility and thought

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like, oh, eventually I'll just get what I deserve.

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Guess what? I never got what I deserved because

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I didn't want to ask. So when women are in that

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situation and it really comes down to that self

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advocacy, how do we approach that? I think you

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almost have to take yourself out of it because,

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you know, like you, I know a lot of other and

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myself included, I didn't know that I should

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be advocating for myself until much later. And

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I'm thinking, wow, how much money did I leave

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on the table all of those years? So I know a

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lot of women, really good friends of mine that

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are very, you know, very strong advocates for

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their teams, their clients, their, you know,

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parents, their family members, their kids. But

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when it comes to advocating for themselves, they

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really just, you know, retreat from that. And,

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you know, it is I don't know why I'm not a psychologist

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to explain those things. But I think if you're

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asking yourself, what can we do to think about,

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you know, what advice would you give other women?

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Like, what would you tell your best friend or

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your, you know, coworker? if they were having

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this discussion of how do I advocate for myself?

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I know, you know, women who have gone, myself

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included, years without accepting, you know,

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without asking for a raise or accepting the fact

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that raises aren't being given and, you know,

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they say the squeaky wheel kind of gets the grease

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and it's not to really be annoying to your employers

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because you have to understand the context of

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maybe why you're not getting the raise or why

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you're not getting promoted. But really, the

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lesson is don't wait around to be asked because

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you ultimately are in charge of your own career.

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No one is going to be, you know, it's no one

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else's job to wait, you know, to kind of make

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sure that you're getting promoted. You're getting

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the raise that you deserve. It really is in your

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own control to do those, to take care of those

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things. Makes sense. So someone's listening to

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this, which I'm sure this is the case for many

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women listening to this. And they're like, wow,

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I haven't had a Raise I'm not really getting

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compensated for all the additional work. I've

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taken on in the last year or two What's that

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approach? How do we approach that first thing

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you're thinking I need to do something now What

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do I do? Yeah, so I think there's a couple of

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things one is, you know pay equity is making

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sure that you're getting paid the same as others,

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men and women, for the role that you are doing.

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So when you get hired, the job description is

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essentially, think of it as your scope of work.

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So the company is saying, this is what we're

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going to ask you to do, and in return, we're

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going to pay you, I'm making it up, $150 ,000.

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Okay, and then if a client was to increase your

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scope, You wouldn't say, sure, I'll keep doing

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it for the same amount of money, but now you're

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asking me to do more. And again, that has to

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be substantial and a pattern over a period of

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time. So I think you can approach that discussion

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with your manager and say, hey, my level, I'm

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a director level, and I'm making this much, and

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this is what you asked me to do. Now, since then,

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my clients have doubled or my region has increased.

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And certainly, quantify. you know, your accomplishments

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to justify the increase as well. But it is really

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just kind of looking at it from almost a very

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business standpoint, which I think is important

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because I think women tend to personalize and

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feel like, oh, I don't want to ask. I don't want

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to feel greedy. But if you think of it as a business

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contract that you have with your employer, it

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makes it a little bit easier. I love that. And

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what about timing? When do we do this? So it's

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not whatever you feel like it. So we give some

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guidance to women. There's actually, we put a

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checklist together for a promotion. Like, how

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do you know you're ready for a promotion? And

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we have 15 things on there that women should

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understand because it's not just, hey, you did

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a good job and... you know, now it's promotion

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and raise time, so you should ask. Certainly

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that's, you know, what is the window? And every

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company has one specific window or multiple windows

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throughout the year where they look at raises

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and promotions, but there are also other things.

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So, you know, did you do something just amazing

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at the company where it got a lot of press and

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a lot of publicity? And you can know, can you

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leverage that as a way to ask? Have you brought

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in a really big client or helped renew a really

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big client, and there's like been, you know,

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revenue increase. But there's also, you know,

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how is the company doing? Right? So if the company

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isn't doing well, and they're laying off people,

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and that's a whole separate thing, you know,

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but if they're laying off people, that's probably

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not the best time to go in and ask how you ask

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when you ask and frame it is really important.

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I think women need to understand the context

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of the corporate environment that they're operating

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in. So it isn't just about advocating for yourself,

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that is so, so important. It has to start there.

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But you also really have to understand, you know,

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kind of the corporate landscape, what your bosses

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are thinking, what's happening in their mind.

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And before you go in and ask, I can't like put

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an exclamation behind that enough. Because yes,

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I said I wasn't great advocating for myself,

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especially early in the career. But then sitting

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in the manager, the bossy the last several years,

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I've Been on the other side of those conversations

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where some people came in prepared handled it

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appropriately had the facts And i'll never forget

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this one woman came into my office who had been

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there for several years good employee Not amazing,

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but but decent right after we had a staff meeting

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where I said we were behind budget We weren't

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hitting numbers. We were behind our revenue goals

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And you know kind of batten down the hatches

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figure out how to save money and increase sales

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She came into my office and asked for a raise.

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Not like a two percent, it was like a fifteen

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thousand, I mean something significant and I

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just sat there baffled. Like I can't believe

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the timing of you asking me this. Like and I

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don't even know how I handled it. I think I took

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a lot of deep breaths before I responded. Like

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hello, were you in the last meeting? Yes. So

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that was, I appreciate her having the comfort

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to come to me but it's like That just showed

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she was completely oblivious to what was going

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on and and to me it hurt her credibility It hurt

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her like hey, you are not paying attention to

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what's going on Like we're trying not to let

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people let go essentially and you're asking for

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a race So I think that is important. You want

00:13:11.779 --> 00:13:13.419
people to be confident you want them to come

00:13:13.419 --> 00:13:17.399
in there, but timing is so important timing is

00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:19.659
important. And I would have counseled her had

00:13:19.659 --> 00:13:22.299
she come to me, I would have said, Hey, okay,

00:13:22.379 --> 00:13:24.860
you you cannot go in, you know, right after this

00:13:24.860 --> 00:13:28.919
meeting, give it a week or two kind of breathing

00:13:28.919 --> 00:13:32.740
room, and go in and talk to your direct manager

00:13:32.740 --> 00:13:35.240
and ask them and if that was you great, you know,

00:13:35.299 --> 00:13:38.139
going into you. Yeah, so going into your direct

00:13:38.139 --> 00:13:41.659
manager and saying, Hey, I understand the message,

00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:45.029
you know, you have to acknowledge what you just

00:13:45.029 --> 00:13:49.970
heard and ask the question, how are you compensating

00:13:49.970 --> 00:13:53.629
or what is your retention strategy in the light

00:13:53.629 --> 00:13:58.250
of our business context? How are you rewarding

00:13:58.250 --> 00:14:02.610
your employees? And that could be monetary, that

00:14:02.610 --> 00:14:06.190
could be in other ways, but it's asking the question

00:14:06.190 --> 00:14:09.559
rather than... just saying, I want an increase.

00:14:09.659 --> 00:14:12.039
And if that's the priority, that's great. But

00:14:12.039 --> 00:14:15.039
you really have to go in with, again, the timing,

00:14:15.179 --> 00:14:17.559
not after the meeting, give it a week or two,

00:14:17.740 --> 00:14:21.360
rehearse script, and really try to understand

00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:25.919
how are you going to be rewarded, given the business

00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:29.399
environment. That makes total sense. Now, of

00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:31.360
course, every company is different with their

00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.340
timing. But typically, budgets are set. in the

00:14:34.340 --> 00:14:37.100
fall, winter, performance reviews and raises

00:14:37.100 --> 00:14:41.080
happen typically in the spring. So we're probably

00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:42.500
in that time phase where people just went through

00:14:42.500 --> 00:14:44.940
performance views, maybe got raises. But how,

00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:48.360
from a year -round perspective, do we make sure

00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:50.440
we're doing the things, besides doing our job

00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:53.049
and doing it well, that when it comes to budget

00:14:53.049 --> 00:14:56.429
season that your manager is like, wait, I need

00:14:56.429 --> 00:14:58.490
to take care of my employee. She's been doing

00:14:58.490 --> 00:15:00.669
this. So how do we sort of operate throughout

00:15:00.669 --> 00:15:03.629
the year? That's a great question. And I think

00:15:03.629 --> 00:15:07.470
a lot of people assume that you will ask for

00:15:07.470 --> 00:15:09.590
the raise or the promotion or try to negotiate

00:15:09.590 --> 00:15:13.330
your raise when you are given that raise. And

00:15:13.330 --> 00:15:15.970
that could be in January, February, March. But

00:15:15.970 --> 00:15:19.309
the problem with that is those budgets were decided

00:15:19.309 --> 00:15:24.190
months ago. And we did a whole focus I think

00:15:24.190 --> 00:15:28.090
back in October or November around now is the

00:15:28.090 --> 00:15:31.029
time to really quantify the value of your accomplishments

00:15:31.029 --> 00:15:35.929
and have a pre -chat with your manager and ask

00:15:35.929 --> 00:15:38.250
for raise or promotion or just let them know

00:15:38.250 --> 00:15:41.629
because what they don't see behind the scenes

00:15:41.629 --> 00:15:44.899
is. the managers or the managers managers are,

00:15:44.899 --> 00:15:47.820
you know, they in many cases have an Excel file

00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:51.299
and they are looking at budgets for next year.

00:15:51.460 --> 00:15:53.559
They're determining what the raise in the bonus

00:15:53.559 --> 00:15:56.679
pool is going to be and how that's going to get

00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:01.440
split across, you know, the high performers versus,

00:16:01.460 --> 00:16:04.279
you know, the people who are going to get a smaller

00:16:04.279 --> 00:16:07.679
raise. So that could be a 2 % versus 6%. So that's

00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:10.139
kind of already been decided even promotions.

00:16:10.139 --> 00:16:12.659
And I think you might, you know, I'm sure you

00:16:12.659 --> 00:16:14.860
experienced this as well. You kind of know who's

00:16:14.860 --> 00:16:17.639
going to get promoted before you're actually

00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:20.779
giving out those promotions. So I think you have

00:16:20.779 --> 00:16:23.340
to understand again, it's the context and the

00:16:23.340 --> 00:16:26.220
timing is really important. Asking for a raise

00:16:26.220 --> 00:16:28.539
when you're getting your performance review is

00:16:28.539 --> 00:16:31.039
not the right time. You need to have communicated

00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:34.799
your intent or your wish or this is what I'm

00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:37.820
looking for in the following year. I'm looking

00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:40.169
for a raise. I'm looking for a promotion. I'm

00:16:40.169 --> 00:16:42.090
looking to move to a different department, whatever

00:16:42.090 --> 00:16:44.830
that is, you know, when your managers are actually

00:16:44.830 --> 00:16:47.470
making those decisions. That's great advice.

00:16:48.289 --> 00:16:51.970
So what about self promotion and exposure? How

00:16:51.970 --> 00:16:54.850
does that all tie into how these decisions are

00:16:54.850 --> 00:16:57.710
made throughout the year? So I always tell people,

00:16:57.769 --> 00:17:00.269
you know, you can't just negotiate in a vacuum.

00:17:00.409 --> 00:17:02.470
You can't have this conversation once a year.

00:17:02.549 --> 00:17:06.910
You also can't negotiate your value if you cannot

00:17:06.910 --> 00:17:10.519
recognize and articulate it. And that needs to

00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:13.680
happen throughout the year. It is not a one -time

00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:15.900
thing. It is not just around your performance

00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:19.059
reviews. I get asked by a lot of young women,

00:17:19.500 --> 00:17:22.640
by a lot of women actually across their career

00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:25.920
journey, well, it feels like I'm bragging. Like,

00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:29.619
okay, you have to reframe it as communicating

00:17:29.619 --> 00:17:34.099
and stakeholder management. I would have a sticky

00:17:34.099 --> 00:17:37.259
on my laptop when I worked at a consulting company

00:17:37.259 --> 00:17:42.750
that was highly matrixed. like networking internally

00:17:42.750 --> 00:17:44.490
was really important. Communicating your value

00:17:44.490 --> 00:17:47.349
was really important. And I would say, who needs

00:17:47.349 --> 00:17:51.049
to know? And when I had a great meeting or a

00:17:51.049 --> 00:17:53.569
really bad meeting or something was coming up,

00:17:53.890 --> 00:17:56.309
I needed to communicate, you know, who else needs

00:17:56.309 --> 00:18:00.069
to know? Well, I work in this one group, but

00:18:00.069 --> 00:18:02.210
you have a lot of stakeholders across the company

00:18:02.210 --> 00:18:05.009
in different groups. So kind of sending an email,

00:18:05.009 --> 00:18:08.109
you know, once a week, once every couple of weeks

00:18:08.109 --> 00:18:11.599
and putting in some senior people where the information

00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:14.259
is going to be relevant. Even like, hey, we had

00:18:14.259 --> 00:18:17.339
a great meeting with this client. And, you know,

00:18:17.460 --> 00:18:19.940
last week, the team did a great job. There were

00:18:19.940 --> 00:18:22.299
a couple of next steps, wanted you all to be

00:18:22.299 --> 00:18:26.279
aware. So you kind of think of it as communicating,

00:18:26.279 --> 00:18:29.000
because I think people really like being informed

00:18:29.000 --> 00:18:31.519
and what's in the know, especially around big

00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:33.980
happenings in the company. Sure. And how important

00:18:33.980 --> 00:18:37.660
is that exposure outside just your Manager like

00:18:37.660 --> 00:18:39.599
to the rest of whether it's a leadership team

00:18:39.599 --> 00:18:41.420
or to the CEO depending on the structure of the

00:18:41.420 --> 00:18:44.259
company How important is that and how do we go

00:18:44.259 --> 00:18:47.359
sort of a? Not above and beyond but above and

00:18:47.359 --> 00:18:50.220
beyond just focusing on our manager I think it's

00:18:50.220 --> 00:18:52.859
critical because you those decisions that are

00:18:52.859 --> 00:18:55.779
made around raises and promotions and visibility

00:18:55.779 --> 00:18:58.640
and you know different like really good projects

00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:02.200
are Not necessarily made by your manager. So

00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:04.380
this is especially important if you're women

00:19:04.569 --> 00:19:07.670
who are early in their careers because their

00:19:07.670 --> 00:19:11.410
managers are also kind of like mid level. And

00:19:11.410 --> 00:19:13.829
you really want to get in, you know, you want

00:19:13.829 --> 00:19:17.029
to be visible across the organization, across

00:19:17.029 --> 00:19:20.309
departments and across senior leaders because

00:19:20.309 --> 00:19:22.849
they're the ones who are making those decisions

00:19:22.849 --> 00:19:26.490
in the room. And you can't, you know, unfortunately,

00:19:27.210 --> 00:19:29.250
you know, manager training has really dropped.

00:19:29.470 --> 00:19:33.089
in companies, so you can't only rely on your

00:19:33.089 --> 00:19:36.029
manager anymore to be the advocate for you in

00:19:36.029 --> 00:19:39.470
the room. You might get a manager who's a really

00:19:39.470 --> 00:19:41.650
strong advocate. That's great. But sometimes

00:19:41.650 --> 00:19:44.329
you have a manager that isn't, you know, very

00:19:44.329 --> 00:19:47.349
vocal and may not, not because they don't like

00:19:47.349 --> 00:19:49.490
you, but they're just like not in their personality

00:19:49.490 --> 00:19:51.910
to, you know, kind of be vocal in the room. So

00:19:51.910 --> 00:19:54.349
it's important to make sure people across the

00:19:54.349 --> 00:19:56.690
company, you know, know who you are. And when

00:19:56.690 --> 00:19:59.829
that time comes to say, oh, Betsy should get

00:19:59.829 --> 00:20:02.490
promoted. Everyone in the room kind of like nods

00:20:02.490 --> 00:20:03.950
their head like, oh, yeah, I know Betsy. She's

00:20:03.950 --> 00:20:07.089
fantastic. Yep. That's so important. And it doesn't

00:20:07.089 --> 00:20:08.509
matter the size of company. I mean, I've seen

00:20:08.509 --> 00:20:10.829
that at smaller companies and larger companies

00:20:10.829 --> 00:20:14.289
need to have that influence and sponsors from

00:20:14.289 --> 00:20:16.710
others. So I love that. All right. Let's flip

00:20:16.710 --> 00:20:18.509
this a little bit. So we've been talking about

00:20:18.509 --> 00:20:21.589
when you're on the side of the table asking for

00:20:21.589 --> 00:20:24.710
promotion, raise, whatever it is. What if you're

00:20:24.710 --> 00:20:27.130
the manager who has somebody come to you and

00:20:27.130 --> 00:20:29.769
I gave my story of bad timing, but somebody comes

00:20:29.769 --> 00:20:32.369
to you and they're a good employee, but they're

00:20:32.369 --> 00:20:35.369
like, I Googled my job and on Glassdoor I should

00:20:35.369 --> 00:20:38.839
be making 200 ,000 and they're making 75. I don't

00:20:38.839 --> 00:20:41.980
know making up numbers, but as the manager How

00:20:41.980 --> 00:20:43.740
do you handle that when you have employees who

00:20:43.740 --> 00:20:47.079
are solid employees, but they're coming with

00:20:47.079 --> 00:20:50.039
whether it's wrong time bad numbers Whatever

00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:52.279
it is. Like how do you how do you handle those

00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:55.640
conversations as a manager? So again, I think

00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:58.759
as a manager what I would love for every manager

00:20:58.759 --> 00:21:02.359
to do when an employee comes to them and asks

00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:04.819
for something, and they're clearly advocating

00:21:04.819 --> 00:21:08.720
for themselves, the first thing to say is, thanks

00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:12.160
for asking, or thanks for bringing this up. I

00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:15.859
think we have to reinforce the behavior, but

00:21:15.859 --> 00:21:18.680
course correct, you know, maybe how they went

00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:21.519
about it. But I don't think we should, you know,

00:21:21.720 --> 00:21:25.519
tell people like, well, I can't believe you asked.

00:21:25.579 --> 00:21:27.579
And I think that's one of the reasons where women

00:21:27.579 --> 00:21:31.619
feel, you know, reluctance to go in and ask because

00:21:31.619 --> 00:21:33.920
of, you know, kind of, I think a lot of women,

00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:36.480
you know, get backlash, again, perceived as greedy

00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:38.960
and selfish. So the first thing is, hey, thanks

00:21:38.960 --> 00:21:41.480
for asking. I'm glad you brought this up. Now,

00:21:41.859 --> 00:21:44.670
where are you getting those numbers from? And

00:21:44.670 --> 00:21:47.309
you know really and then also communicating the

00:21:47.309 --> 00:21:50.009
compensation strategy of the company because

00:21:50.009 --> 00:21:52.789
what we tell women You know and and guide them

00:21:52.789 --> 00:21:54.990
towards isn't that you should just go in and

00:21:54.990 --> 00:21:57.269
ask for more You just want to make sure you're

00:21:57.269 --> 00:22:00.109
not leaving money on the table So if the range

00:22:00.109 --> 00:22:03.009
of the of the role that you're in again is between

00:22:03.009 --> 00:22:06.289
a hundred and a hundred and fifty Well, you should

00:22:06.289 --> 00:22:08.670
understand, you know, what is the range where

00:22:08.670 --> 00:22:11.829
where do you fall and why but it's also you know

00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:16.230
incumbent on the manager to communicate, you

00:22:16.230 --> 00:22:19.250
know, hey, you're in the range and that requires

00:22:19.250 --> 00:22:21.730
the entire company. Like that's a system issue,

00:22:22.329 --> 00:22:24.809
right? HR needs a compensation strategy. The

00:22:24.809 --> 00:22:27.289
manager should understand what that is. How is

00:22:27.289 --> 00:22:30.049
that range determined? What's the criteria? And

00:22:30.049 --> 00:22:32.660
being able to communicate that. back to them

00:22:32.660 --> 00:22:35.160
because it's not just, oh, well, if you've done

00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:39.440
your research with external sources that you

00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:42.339
should be making triple, well, in this company,

00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:46.359
the role that you have, this is the range that

00:22:46.359 --> 00:22:49.720
we offer. And it's based on years of experience.

00:22:50.220 --> 00:22:52.160
It's 10 years of experience at the low level,

00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:55.240
15 years at the higher level. Just have some

00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:57.650
quantitative criteria. Because I think people

00:22:57.650 --> 00:23:00.410
just want to trust that they're making what they

00:23:00.410 --> 00:23:03.869
are supposed to be and they're not being underpaid.

00:23:04.009 --> 00:23:05.630
I think it's really just having that comfort

00:23:05.630 --> 00:23:08.210
level and confidence. No, that's great. That's

00:23:08.210 --> 00:23:10.410
a great approach. And you sort of touched on

00:23:10.410 --> 00:23:12.250
this in the beginning with your own story, but

00:23:12.250 --> 00:23:14.910
when you're taking a new job at a new company,

00:23:15.230 --> 00:23:17.369
how do we approach that? How do we, what are

00:23:17.369 --> 00:23:19.329
we based enough of what we made and then trying

00:23:19.329 --> 00:23:21.589
to add money to that? Like, how do we, how do

00:23:21.589 --> 00:23:23.859
we go approach that when we're taking a new job

00:23:23.859 --> 00:23:25.539
and making sure we're not leaving money in the

00:23:25.539 --> 00:23:30.000
table. So never ever give your number. Have it

00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:32.299
ready. Have it in the back of your head. Have

00:23:32.299 --> 00:23:34.680
a sense of what you would like or what you think

00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:36.759
the role not It's not even like what you would

00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:38.740
like I would like to make you know millions of

00:23:38.740 --> 00:23:41.880
dollars But you know, you can't just go in and

00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:44.259
expect that so you have to really understand

00:23:44.259 --> 00:23:47.240
You need to go to credible sources, you know,

00:23:47.259 --> 00:23:49.779
and it's not just one source But it's you have

00:23:49.779 --> 00:23:53.579
to use multiple sources use recruiters use job

00:23:53.579 --> 00:23:56.900
descriptions that list pay ranges and You know

00:23:56.900 --> 00:23:59.859
make sure you have that in the back of your mind,

00:24:00.220 --> 00:24:02.839
but never ever give your number if you can help

00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:06.519
it. And always say, what's the range for the

00:24:06.519 --> 00:24:10.819
role? Well, like, OK, well, I would rather get

00:24:10.819 --> 00:24:14.119
the range from them. And then you can ask, well,

00:24:14.299 --> 00:24:16.640
what's the criteria that you use for that range?

00:24:17.190 --> 00:24:20.670
Cool. I like that. And again, ask questions,

00:24:21.049 --> 00:24:23.950
you know, understand their rationale. What's

00:24:23.950 --> 00:24:27.130
their logic behind the numbers rather than coming

00:24:27.130 --> 00:24:30.009
in with your own? Because you want to know if

00:24:30.009 --> 00:24:33.190
they actually have rationale for, you know, they

00:24:33.190 --> 00:24:35.509
have a compensation strategy because, you know,

00:24:35.569 --> 00:24:38.309
again, the goal isn't to make as much as you

00:24:38.309 --> 00:24:40.569
can. It's to make as much as you can within the

00:24:40.569 --> 00:24:43.670
range that they're providing you. That's great.

00:24:44.190 --> 00:24:45.769
And it's funny as you're saying that it also

00:24:45.769 --> 00:24:47.769
makes me think about people who've been at the

00:24:47.769 --> 00:24:51.029
same company for a long time how and I victim

00:24:51.029 --> 00:24:52.670
of this I have friends who are victim of this

00:24:52.670 --> 00:24:55.849
where people come in doing something similar

00:24:55.849 --> 00:24:58.630
Making way more because they negotiated better.

00:24:58.630 --> 00:25:00.289
They had that opportunity Meanwhile, i'm sitting

00:25:00.289 --> 00:25:02.829
here get my you know, three percent raise every

00:25:02.829 --> 00:25:05.410
year So if you're in that situation where it's

00:25:05.410 --> 00:25:07.170
probably a bigger company where there's structure

00:25:07.170 --> 00:25:10.630
people coming in, you know Just kind of you know,

00:25:10.630 --> 00:25:13.250
they're coming in making more than you. How do

00:25:13.250 --> 00:25:15.829
you approach that? So I'll tell you a really

00:25:15.829 --> 00:25:19.109
quick story. And I realized as a manager, many

00:25:19.109 --> 00:25:22.609
years ago, I was responsible for, you know, kind

00:25:22.609 --> 00:25:27.150
of like salary across my team. And I saw the

00:25:27.150 --> 00:25:30.789
range of salaries across team members. And I

00:25:30.789 --> 00:25:32.849
saw this woman who had been at the company for

00:25:32.849 --> 00:25:36.809
a very long time. She was one of the top performers

00:25:36.809 --> 00:25:40.910
in this company. And she was paid like she was

00:25:40.910 --> 00:25:45.990
at the lowest end of salaries. And I asked, why

00:25:45.990 --> 00:25:50.589
is she so fantastic? Why is she not paid as much

00:25:50.589 --> 00:25:53.230
as some of the other folks? And the response

00:25:53.230 --> 00:25:55.650
I got was, well, the other folks just kind of

00:25:55.650 --> 00:25:59.289
negotiated more, better. And this woman had been

00:25:59.289 --> 00:26:03.069
at the company for a really long time. And so

00:26:03.069 --> 00:26:08.340
I think, again, as the manager, as women, especially

00:26:08.340 --> 00:26:13.700
managing teams, you can identify the pay inequities

00:26:13.700 --> 00:26:16.640
within your own team. So even if the company

00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:18.920
may not have a compensation strategy, you should

00:26:18.920 --> 00:26:21.680
be able to ask questions of making sure that

00:26:21.680 --> 00:26:24.019
your team members are being paid fairly based

00:26:24.019 --> 00:26:26.599
on performance or based on years of experience.

00:26:27.019 --> 00:26:30.740
And I think as the employee, it is just asking

00:26:30.740 --> 00:26:33.880
the question of Again at the right time with

00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:36.599
the right context, you know understanding what

00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:38.779
is the range that you know, they should be making

00:26:38.779 --> 00:26:42.380
and again the companies need to have Rhyme and

00:26:42.380 --> 00:26:44.859
reason for the pay ranges and I think with the

00:26:44.859 --> 00:26:48.559
salary transparency laws That you know have been

00:26:48.559 --> 00:26:51.299
kind of rolling out throughout the country It's

00:26:51.299 --> 00:26:53.859
becoming easier and companies are being forced

00:26:53.859 --> 00:26:57.680
to publish ranges and have you know have ranges

00:26:57.680 --> 00:26:59.880
that they need to communicate internally and

00:26:59.880 --> 00:27:03.740
externally so people aren't being underpaid who

00:27:03.740 --> 00:27:06.519
have been there for a really long time. No, that's

00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:09.519
so important and so true. And from the company

00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:11.000
perspective, when you're sitting there managing

00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:13.859
P &L and you're like, well, I can save 10 here,

00:27:14.000 --> 00:27:17.720
20 there. It's not personal. It's a business

00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:19.480
decision, not the right business decision by

00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:21.940
any stretch. But that's how this just sort of

00:27:21.940 --> 00:27:24.460
happens. And to your point, it's not that it's

00:27:24.460 --> 00:27:26.440
always malicious. The gender pay gap just happened

00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:29.919
because of how we're approaching our Personal

00:27:29.919 --> 00:27:32.859
corporate strategy of of you know, being an advocate

00:27:32.859 --> 00:27:35.299
for ourselves So it's so interesting when sometimes

00:27:35.299 --> 00:27:36.900
I think you think no one's looking at you and

00:27:36.900 --> 00:27:38.640
be like, oh you're a woman I'm just gonna pay

00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:41.259
you less. I don't have it's it's not that black

00:27:41.259 --> 00:27:43.420
and white typically, but it's like we've just

00:27:43.420 --> 00:27:48.279
created this Cycle, yes in order to we have to

00:27:48.279 --> 00:27:50.720
figure out how to break it and it takes the managers

00:27:50.720 --> 00:27:53.400
and the leaders and you know business owners,

00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.619
but then also the employees, they have to take

00:27:56.619 --> 00:27:58.700
responsibility for that too, for that advocating.

00:27:59.440 --> 00:28:02.519
So it's, I don't know, are we headed in the right

00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:04.359
direction? Do you think? I think, you know, the

00:28:04.359 --> 00:28:06.599
more we talk about it, the better it is. And

00:28:06.599 --> 00:28:08.940
I think, you know, really letting, and again,

00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:12.170
this is why. You know nine exists because it's

00:28:12.170 --> 00:28:14.069
not just teaching you how to self advocate But

00:28:14.069 --> 00:28:16.470
it's giving you like insider intelligence that

00:28:16.470 --> 00:28:19.170
women especially going coming into the workforce

00:28:19.170 --> 00:28:22.369
Don't have and you it takes years and years of

00:28:22.369 --> 00:28:25.289
trial and error to learn this but you know every

00:28:25.289 --> 00:28:29.150
company worth their salt should have a You know

00:28:29.150 --> 00:28:32.190
a budget for a role that they're recruiting for

00:28:32.829 --> 00:28:34.930
Every company, you know, so like hey, we're gonna

00:28:34.930 --> 00:28:36.869
pay, you know between a hundred and a hundred

00:28:36.869 --> 00:28:40.089
fifty thousand dollars for this role and As the

00:28:40.089 --> 00:28:41.970
employee coming in you should know that there

00:28:41.970 --> 00:28:44.170
is a range that there and when they make you

00:28:44.170 --> 00:28:47.309
the offer they are naturally going to give you

00:28:47.309 --> 00:28:50.990
offer you the lowest end of the range and If

00:28:50.990 --> 00:28:53.549
you accept it, they're thinking great. We just

00:28:53.549 --> 00:28:57.089
saved ten twenty thirty grand, right? And that

00:28:57.089 --> 00:28:59.369
can go that's gonna go back to their you know

00:28:59.369 --> 00:29:04.029
bottom line, but if you ask for, you know, more

00:29:04.029 --> 00:29:06.910
based and again, you know, the criteria for the

00:29:06.910 --> 00:29:09.710
100 versus 150 and you ask the right questions

00:29:09.710 --> 00:29:12.630
and ask them why they decided to give you the

00:29:12.630 --> 00:29:15.849
hundred instead of 125 or 150 or somewhere along

00:29:15.849 --> 00:29:18.690
that continuum. Then you kind of have you're

00:29:18.690 --> 00:29:21.309
using numbers and data to make your ask rather

00:29:21.309 --> 00:29:24.549
than I just want more. So again, it's harder

00:29:24.549 --> 00:29:28.319
to argue with that. So Companies expect to negotiate

00:29:28.319 --> 00:29:30.640
their starting point is always going to be the

00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:34.500
lower end. So, you know, don't hesitate I love

00:29:34.500 --> 00:29:37.640
that Okay, so this has been a lot of good advice

00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:40.480
for both people at both sides of the table So

00:29:40.480 --> 00:29:44.279
what's your parting advice words that will help

00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:47.279
eliminate this or close the gap on the gender

00:29:47.279 --> 00:29:49.500
pay gap? What do you think we need to do? So

00:29:49.500 --> 00:29:52.759
I think the one thing that I would like to tell

00:29:52.759 --> 00:29:58.720
women is set goals that matter I think too often,

00:29:58.819 --> 00:30:01.380
you know, women tend to do that. And I think,

00:30:01.380 --> 00:30:05.619
you know, that like housework type of, you know,

00:30:05.720 --> 00:30:09.079
that was talked about, you know, before is, you

00:30:09.079 --> 00:30:11.539
know, you're volunteering for all of these committees

00:30:11.539 --> 00:30:14.519
and, you know, you're kind of like the mom of

00:30:14.519 --> 00:30:16.519
the team and you're taking care of everybody.

00:30:17.369 --> 00:30:19.890
Fine. No one's going to tell you not to do those

00:30:19.890 --> 00:30:22.210
things, but those things are not getting you

00:30:22.210 --> 00:30:25.250
promoted. So you really have to focus on goals

00:30:25.250 --> 00:30:28.789
that matter. And when I say that matter, talk

00:30:28.789 --> 00:30:31.210
to your manager about, are these the things that

00:30:31.210 --> 00:30:33.410
are going to get me promoted? Or are these the

00:30:33.410 --> 00:30:36.190
things that are going to actually have an impact

00:30:36.190 --> 00:30:39.150
on my career trajectory in this company and based

00:30:39.150 --> 00:30:42.109
on what I would like to accomplish? Yes or no?

00:30:43.100 --> 00:30:45.900
make sure that you're connecting your goals to

00:30:45.900 --> 00:30:49.119
the business goals because most companies, if

00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:53.519
not all companies, really just look at your value

00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:56.160
to them is how much money are you saving them

00:30:56.160 --> 00:30:58.480
and how much money are you making them? So if

00:30:58.480 --> 00:31:00.700
you're in sales, that's a super easy way to say,

00:31:00.859 --> 00:31:03.119
I'm making you money. But if you're in other

00:31:03.119 --> 00:31:06.160
administrative roles, think about how you are

00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:09.420
operating that helped the company make money

00:31:09.420 --> 00:31:12.140
or save money or bring some type of quantifiable

00:31:12.140 --> 00:31:16.250
value. which leads me into quantifying your value.

00:31:18.430 --> 00:31:21.150
There's three work categories that every woman

00:31:21.150 --> 00:31:24.130
should keep in mind. So when you track your accomplishments,

00:31:24.990 --> 00:31:27.509
categorize your accomplishments into one of these

00:31:27.509 --> 00:31:30.430
three categories. The first is people developer.

00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:32.960
super easy to understand how are you helping

00:31:32.960 --> 00:31:35.299
people, whether it's the intern or whether it's

00:31:35.299 --> 00:31:38.039
your peers, whoever it is, you're managing and

00:31:38.039 --> 00:31:40.779
developing people. The second is business operator.

00:31:41.299 --> 00:31:43.740
That business operator is really about how are

00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:46.099
you, you know, working along with the processes

00:31:46.099 --> 00:31:49.000
and the administrative things or even, you know,

00:31:49.339 --> 00:31:51.140
how you're running, helping to run the company

00:31:51.140 --> 00:31:53.920
and your team. And then, finally, the value creator

00:31:53.920 --> 00:31:56.420
is, this is the role that you were hired for.

00:31:56.779 --> 00:31:59.240
What is the value that you are creating within

00:31:59.240 --> 00:32:01.680
the role for your company or for your client

00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:05.740
or both? And have accomplishments, well, have

00:32:05.740 --> 00:32:07.980
goals and accomplishments under each of those

00:32:07.980 --> 00:32:11.799
three categories. And at least for one, in each

00:32:11.799 --> 00:32:14.680
of those categories, quantify the value. What

00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:17.960
is the impact that you've had on the number of

00:32:17.960 --> 00:32:22.420
people, on the... money saved, money earned,

00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:25.900
make sure at least one has a dollar sign, percent

00:32:25.900 --> 00:32:29.240
sign, or number sign next to it. And so when

00:32:29.240 --> 00:32:31.259
it comes time to, and that's really kind of creating

00:32:31.259 --> 00:32:34.500
your business case. And when it comes time to

00:32:34.500 --> 00:32:36.680
asking for that raise or promotion in the right

00:32:36.680 --> 00:32:38.880
time, in the right context, you bring that business

00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:43.339
case to your manager and present it as a fact

00:32:43.339 --> 00:32:47.259
-based decision rather than any, you know, It

00:32:47.259 --> 00:32:49.140
doesn't need to be emotional. It just needs to

00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:52.460
be fact -based. Oh, that's so good. And fact

00:32:52.460 --> 00:32:54.960
-based is so important when you're dealing with

00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:57.259
money, right? Essentially, that's what the company

00:32:57.259 --> 00:32:59.599
is always trying to maximize their money, save

00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:02.019
their money. So you can show how you're impacting

00:33:02.019 --> 00:33:05.140
that versus, oh, she's really nice and she's

00:33:05.140 --> 00:33:07.839
a hard worker. She stays late. That's great.

00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:10.579
But that's not going to get you a salary increase

00:33:10.579 --> 00:33:13.900
or maybe even a promotion. So being really factual

00:33:13.900 --> 00:33:16.680
and having the numbers behind that. I think is

00:33:16.680 --> 00:33:19.359
amazing advice. And one last piece of advice

00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:26.019
is when you make your ask, stop talking. Oh my

00:33:26.019 --> 00:33:29.980
gosh. That's amazing. Stop talking. Just silence.

00:33:30.180 --> 00:33:33.400
Let the other person process what you've asked

00:33:33.400 --> 00:33:37.690
for. Formulate a response because too often we

00:33:37.690 --> 00:33:40.670
tend to say oh, but I understand, you know, if

00:33:40.670 --> 00:33:44.250
you can't do it like or Worse, I have you know

00:33:44.250 --> 00:33:47.329
two kids in a mortgage and I just bought a house

00:33:47.329 --> 00:33:52.250
like no Just no just put your ask out there based

00:33:52.250 --> 00:33:56.990
on this. I would like stop talking and force

00:33:56.990 --> 00:34:00.450
the silence force a response and Whatever the

00:34:00.450 --> 00:34:03.559
response is, you know, make sure you have and

00:34:03.559 --> 00:34:07.240
answer ready to go. Oh, that is amazing. That

00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:09.699
is the best advice to end on right there because

00:34:09.699 --> 00:34:12.019
it's so true. We start to spiral. We start to

00:34:12.019 --> 00:34:14.699
explain or give other details that aren't important.

00:34:15.320 --> 00:34:18.539
So causing that silence is a great tactic. I

00:34:18.539 --> 00:34:20.320
love that so much. Oh my gosh, Bob, now we could

00:34:20.320 --> 00:34:22.780
talk about this for another hour. This is such

00:34:22.780 --> 00:34:25.739
great advice. So if people want to find you additional

00:34:25.739 --> 00:34:27.760
information, we'll put all the links in the show

00:34:27.760 --> 00:34:29.860
notes, but you definitely have some great tools

00:34:29.860 --> 00:34:32.800
and resources to help. support women. So thank

00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:36.159
you for being loud and lifted in your mission

00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:38.840
in life, which is amazing, supporting women.

00:34:39.079 --> 00:34:41.860
Thank you so much. I love this conversation because

00:34:41.860 --> 00:34:44.480
it was such a good reminder that self -advocacy

00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:47.559
is not about being difficult, pushy or ungrateful.

00:34:47.800 --> 00:34:49.780
It's about understanding your value, knowing

00:34:49.780 --> 00:34:51.980
how to communicate it and being willing to ask

00:34:51.980 --> 00:34:54.440
better questions instead of hoping someone else

00:34:54.440 --> 00:34:57.230
advocates for you. Too many women are leaving

00:34:57.230 --> 00:34:59.730
money, opportunity, and advancement on the table

00:34:59.730 --> 00:35:02.210
simply because they've been taught to wait, stay

00:35:02.210 --> 00:35:04.690
quiet, or make themselves more comfortable for

00:35:04.690 --> 00:35:07.469
everyone else. And Bapna made such a strong case

00:35:07.469 --> 00:35:09.969
for why this has to change and how to make it

00:35:09.969 --> 00:35:12.789
happen. If this episode resonated with you, send

00:35:12.789 --> 00:35:14.750
it to another woman in your circle. These are

00:35:14.750 --> 00:35:17.469
the conversations that help us all lead louder

00:35:17.469 --> 00:35:18.469
and lift higher.