The Devil Emails at Midnight: Mita Mallick on 13 Types of Bad Bosses—and How Not to Become One

00:01.55
Betsy Hamm
Welcome to la welcome to Loud and Lifted, Amita Mellick. Thank you so much for being here. You are, um we're recording this, 11 days, 12 days away from your second book launch.

00:17.41
Betsy Hamm
So we appreciate you being here. How are you doing? is it easier when you're launching your second book?

00:24.13
Mita Mallick
Gosh, what a great question. Thanks for having me. I'm filled with like anxiety and excitement. I am ah ah marketing executive and have been an HR executive, so I treat my book like a product launch. So I've been quietly behind the screens screens at this for a while.

00:37.58
Mita Mallick
The second book, you learn a lot more, and it's still it's still tough to be an author and try to generate revenue from writing. The whole industry publishing has changed a lot, so it's very different different than I thought it would be.

00:50.56
Betsy Hamm
I can't imagine, and we appreciate you being here. and And when everybody hears this episode, your book will be live. So we're going talk about it, and hopefully we can push those sales to Amazon here.

00:59.28
Mita Mallick
Thank you.

00:59.52
Betsy Hamm
So the book is called The Devil Emails at Midnight. So talk about having a great title  that catches people's attention. So tell us about book.

01:09.69
Mita Mallick
So the the title, The Devil Emails at Midnight, What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses, and the opening line of the book is, I've been a bad boss and chances are so of you. And so I have been a person who has contributed a lot in the marketplace literature on how to survive a toxic workplace. The number one DM I get is, how do I survive this bad boss with something very personal and painful, someone something someone's going through? And it's just awful. And I thought to myself,

01:36.89
Mita Mallick
I've certainly been a bad boss. And what if we all looked in the mirror and thought about the ways that we were not positively contributing to our work environment and doing something that was holding our teams back? Wouldn't we want to change that?

01:50.39
Mita Mallick
And so that's the genesis of the book.

01:53.48
Betsy Hamm
Out of the 13 types that you talk about, how many have you actually experienced personally?

01:58.58
Mita Mallick
Well, all of them. Yeah. So when you read the book, it's 13 archetypes of bad bosses.

02:00.20
Betsy Hamm
Oh, my Gosh.

02:03.48
Mita Mallick
And I'm the last one. i end with myself. I couldn't write a book about how not to be a bad boss and not have humility and the courage to say I've been a bad boss. And so I go through different moments in my career of different types of bad bosses I've experienced.

02:17.34
Mita Mallick
I say in the intro to The Devil Emils at Midnight, I have changed all the details, timeline. I don't want to shame, name, blame, demonize anyone. I hope that these bad bosses are now good leaders.

02:26.65
Betsy Hamm
And so do bosses

02:28.34
Mita Mallick
today. And I think that it's it's context and situation matters. Someone who is a bad boss for me years later could be a good leader for you. We could be on the same team and someone who's a bad boss for me could actually be a good leader for you.

02:44.74
Mita Mallick
Right. So I think those things are important to keep in mind as well.

02:48.72
Betsy Hamm
and so do you think that they can change

02:51.58
Mita Mallick
Can they change? I think they can. i Listen, I've learned the hard way in my career and life, and I'm sure you can attest to this, is that you can't change anyone. I can't change my husband, mother, kids.

03:03.50
Mita Mallick
I mean, I'm trying to change my kids. But brother, friends, you know you you have to look inside yourself and have enough self-awareness to say, I want to work on this one thing.

03:05.46
Betsy Hamm
Right.

03:13.14
Mita Mallick
And so bad bosses have to have that self-awareness. And there's a ah pendulum. It goes back and forth. Like I've been a really good leader and a bad boss. And then I've become a good leader again. Then something else happens and I'm a bad boss. So that's important to keep in mind too. It's not a permanent state of being ah really good leader forever. where we give ourselves grace that we're going to go back and forth in how we behave.

03:37.16
Betsy Hamm
So do you think nowadays, is there a certain archetype that you see a lot of?

03:42.88
Mita Mallick
Oh, that's a really good question. i think given the marketplace and how much is happening, I mean, we're sitting in the US right now, whether that's terrorists tariffs or interest rates, I mean, there's so many things happening that's affecting business day to day.

03:55.59
Mita Mallick
One of my bad bosses, I also nickname all of them, And you'll see there's a reason for that. part of Part of my rationale, I think, is that I've always nicknamed my bad bosses, and it is to create emotional distance from them and to say I could never be Medusa or the napper or the sheriff. Like, I could never behave that way, could I?

04:12.61
Mita Mallick
And maybe it's not that in that exacerbated form, but I do believe many of us on a small scale have exhibited those behaviors.

04:13.42
Betsy Hamm
Thank you.

04:19.76
Mita Mallick
One of the bosses I talk about is the cheerleader, and I call him the corporate pied piper. People loved. being in the office with him, following him around. He was an amazing coach, mentor, wanted to spend time with us. And so you're probably thinking, how is this a bad boss? Like, this doesn't make sense.

04:36.43
Mita Mallick
He was filled with toxic positivity. It was rainbows and lollipops and and pop you know popcorn and cotton candy until it wasn't anymore because he was always surrounded by yes people and whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

04:46.76
Betsy Hamm
right.

04:54.70
Mita Mallick
You can do this. I believe in you. Like this Instagram reel that was just becoming exhausting. And in the book, I talk about this one moment where we've launched this serial innovation. It's going gangbusters.

05:05.87
Mita Mallick
It's selling so much. And I don't recommend this, but people are eating cereal for breakfast, lunch, and dinner, right? It's going really well. And supply chain comes to us and says, there is an ingredient that we no longer can procure.

05:18.77
Mita Mallick
Like this ingredient is no longer available for X number of months.

05:19.69
Betsy Hamm
Yeah.

05:21.57
Mita Mallick
We're not going to be able to sell this innovation. And so this is a big blow because you've got customers, you've got people wanting it to sell it. And so instead of coming up with an alternative plan or brainstorming and thinking about what we could do,

05:33.63
Mita Mallick
He's like, we're going to add $1 million dollars to the forecast for this innovation. And we're like, what? He's like, you can do it. We can do it. well let's get Let's go, team. Let's go. Rallying, rallying, rallying. And so fast forward to the end of the story, what happens? It's my performance review.

05:47.92
Mita Mallick
I'm sitting with the cheerleader. And I don't get a merit increase. I get a bonus that does not cover my Starbucks addiction. And I get a low rating. And he's like, well, you missed the forecast.

05:58.91
Mita Mallick
And I'm like, huh? And so this idea of toxic positivity, and I think it's one of the traits of bad boss behavior that is really damaging that we don't talk enough about. So goals are changing given the marketplace conditions, and yet you still expect your team to meet it at all costs. It's not possible. So I'm working for you, Betsy.

06:18.34
Mita Mallick
You have a goal that you've given my team for this quarter. The 10 things I needed to get to that goal, I only now have three things. But you're still like, push, push, push. You can do it. Rather than saying, OK, it seems like you can only get to 70% or 80%.

06:34.19
Mita Mallick
what how What can we do? like Let's be realistic together. And that is a really dangerous quality when you do not sit down with your teams and have that dose of of realism. I'm not saying not to be optimistic and inspiring. I'm saying that realism is really important in this marketplace.

06:53.02
Betsy Hamm
It's not sustainable. To your point, things change and not hitting goals. So if you're not having realistic expectations, then you're not going to be able to hit that and be sustainable.

07:00.85
Mita Mallick
Yeah.

07:02.60
Betsy Hamm
So that's just, that's wild. That's a great one. It's funny. don't think about that. 

07:12.70
Betsy Hamm
 What was the hardest boss to write about?

07:21.42
Mita Mallick
That's a great question. there was There's bosses. I'm one of them. Out of those 13, three really impacted my mental health. So one of the bosses that was really hard to write about was the sheriff.

07:35.36
Mita Mallick
And he was the well-liked bully. People really liked him. And he was very well-networked in the organization. He had like a deputy of sheriffs. I always joke, he was so tall that he could look into the frosted glass conference room and like see who was in there.

07:48.26
Betsy Hamm
Oh.

07:48.91
Mita Mallick
like He could look in there, look over cubes, look into conference rooms. And when i entered the when I re-entered the workplace after business school, I decided to reclaim my full name, Madhumita Malik, which has been a source of joy and shame and embarrassment and pride. And a lot of people told me not to do it, just to go by Mita. But I went into the workforce with this name at the time, post-business school. And he, the sheriff, decided...

08:13.21
Mita Mallick
He wouldn't call me Modamita or learn how to say it. He didn't want to call me Mita and he decided to rename me Muhammad. And so it would be like, Muhammad, go get the sales samples.

08:20.57
Betsy Hamm
you

08:24.04
Mita Mallick
Muhammad, the agency's here. go check them in security. Muhammad, are you coming to lunch? And even Betsy, as I tell you this story, I like have shame. I cringe and I'm like, it's horrible because I responded to a name that wasn't my...

08:38.26
Mita Mallick
own for longer than I'd like to admit. And I remember one day being in his office, I can remember clearly what the office looked like where I was sitting. And I don't know how at this time I'm a junior marketer, I mustered up the courage to say, you just call me Amita?

08:53.54
Mita Mallick
And he looks at me and he laughs and he says, oh, but Mohammed's so funny. It's just funny. And so that was a really painful one to write. And it's also, it's healing every time I share it.

09:05.15
Mita Mallick
And now thousands and thousands of people are going to read it in the book, but it's a tough one like to think about that I was in that position and like let that happen to me, although I have a lot of grace and kindness for myself.

09:10.66
Betsy Hamm
yeah

09:16.88
Mita Mallick
And now I wonder what everyone else was doing as they watched this happen, particularly his peers and his boss.

09:23.37
Betsy Hamm
 how long did this go on for?

09:26.16
Mita Mallick
um I would say like months. Yeah. I mean, I finally resigned.

09:29.01
Betsy Hamm
well

09:29.44
Mita Mallick
I mean, once it started happening, you know, I think my biggest piece of advice to people is where there's smoke, there's fire. And so when someone disrespects you the first time, it won't be the last. And I actually posted about this in social media recently because, know,

09:44.41
Mita Mallick
If I was to give advice to my daughter or my son, who are still young and not not near being in the workplace yet, but I would say to them, like stand up for yourself in that moment if you can, because bullies can really sense the fear.

10:00.07
Mita Mallick
They can sense, and they like to target people who I believe are more quiet, was more introverted, shy kept to myself, was really focused on doing the work. And I was not going to cause any trouble because I wanted to be at this big brand name company.

10:16.00
Mita Mallick
And so really just stand up for yourself in them, which is hard. It's easier said than done, but like, can you shut it down?

10:20.08
Betsy Hamm
When you were young, right? You said you were right out of school. So you have that that you're kind of dealing with where you you don't want to create waves.

10:23.73
Mita Mallick
At a business school?

10:25.66
Betsy Hamm
Yeah.

10:25.72
Mita Mallick
Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

10:27.91
Betsy Hamm
Oh my gosh. That's, that's wild. And even when you tell that story, that makes me feel so uncomfortable.  I just can't imagine one having happen to me, but then two, the people around you who saw that, they're just aa guilty  for not bringing it.

10:35.49
Mita Mallick
Yeah.

10:39.92
Mita Mallick
Just as guilty. And this is what people keep saying to me. What do you think will... change in the workplace. What do you want to change? What's your biggest hope? And my biggest hope is that we look out for each other.

10:51.22
Mita Mallick
We spend too much time in our workplaces not to care about the culture.

10:51.66
Betsy Hamm
Right.

10:56.42
Mita Mallick
And it is the New York City subway. When you see something, say something. And there are power dynamics at work. If I'm the CEO doing something to you, you're not going to necessarily feel comfortable in that moment to do something. But It's never too late to interrupt, to get help, to think of a plan of action, to ask others to intervene on your behalf. And then also just to spend time observing what's happening at work. I do this a lot in meetings and spaces and places and probably as a child and as an adult having been bullied, i just have gained a greater sense of empathy. I wasn't born with it. But I just think about that person suddenly seems quiet or their nonverbals are suggesting something or they look they're looking physically uncomfortable. Can I go check in? Can I help? And I hope we all can gain that sense of awareness awareness and watching what's happening at work.

11:49.36
Betsy Hamm
I love that. And it's so true. Sometimes some people are not comfortable advocating for themselves, but maybe you're more comfortable to advocate for someone else.

11:56.00
Mita Mallick
Yes.

11:57.11
Betsy Hamm
So it's having other people's back and making sure those types of things are happening for sure.

12:47.86
Betsy Hamm
So I follow you on LinkedIn and you have some really incredible content.

12:50.01
Mita Mallick
Oh, thank

12:52.93
Betsy Hamm
You post a lot great quotes. You post a lot of great stories. um You can tell me you've been burned a couple of times through the years. And so how do you take this?

13:00.25
Mita Mallick
Thank you.

13:01.68
Betsy Hamm
And obviously maybe i'm writing a book is part of that, but making this positive and helping this not continue to happen in your future, teaching your children how to make sure that things stand up.

13:10.37
Mita Mallick
Yeah. I mean, even when we think about the title, The Devil Emails at Midnight, the subtitle is What Good Leaders Can Learn from Bad Bosses. And it's a hopeful and positive book. And it's funny because the title is visceral and evokes a lot of emotion.

13:23.60
Mita Mallick
And either you love it or you hate it, right? Because I've had some people, some companies like, oh, well, we email at midnight.

13:29.59
Mita Mallick
We're not sure we want to bring you in. Well, it's like, let's have that conversation. That's really interesting, that tension there. And it's a, people have read it, some early readers are like, this is a really hopeful book. I'm like, that's the point. So even when I think about my social media and when I'm sharing on LinkedIn, I'm sharing these lessons because I want people to know that if you're in a tough spot right now in your career, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

13:50.83
Mita Mallick
We do have agency. We do have choice. If someone's listening today and you're in a tough spot in your career, I'm not telling you to quit tomorrow. People have bills to pay. They health care. It's a tough market. I'm telling you to think about how can you rebuild your self-confidence? How can you find other skills?

14:05.55
Mita Mallick
How can you continue to try to make impact at work and get those points on the resume?

14:10.29
Mita Mallick
And then also part of that is like, what's the overall exit plan, the strategy plan? What are you working on? And so I always want to share stories. Storytelling is the way that we connect and build community.

14:23.86
Mita Mallick
Storytelling is what inspires people to change. And it's also there's a hopeful message, right? and There's like there's a lot of hot tea, but it's like, OK, so what do we learn from this? Like we can just rip on bad bosses or we can say, no, there's actually lessons we can learn on how to be good leaders here.

14:40.19
Betsy Hamm
So do you think any of your bad bosses that are in this, maybe they'll realize that maybe not, do you think they'll read the book? Do you think they'll catch on? 

14:47.37
Mita Mallick
That's a really good question. I've been asked that times. Yeah. You know, I think that some of them aren't self-aware enough to realize that they were bad bosses. I think the three that hurt me the most and harm me the most, those are pretty specific. I mean, details have been changed. But again, i don't know if they...

15:06.07
Mita Mallick
will remember that they did those things and said those things to me. And also, I've worked in a lot of different spaces and places at this point.

15:10.54
Betsy Hamm
True.

15:14.22
Mita Mallick
People forget, when you work for like a Fortune 100 company, there are times in ah in a year you'll have three bosses.

15:21.49
Mita Mallick
Someone resigns. They merge teams. That person moves. You're like, great. I was just working for Betsy for three months, and now I'm working for Mita. And then Mita resigned, and now they don't know what to do, so now i'm working for Jeff. right So it's...

15:33.95
Mita Mallick
that That also happens it is like you have a lot of leaders in your career and a lot of people that you have to work for.

15:41.81
Betsy Hamm
which chapter was your favorite chapter to write?

15:44.80
Mita Mallick
Oh, my favorite chapter to write. The one that gets a lot of giggles because there's some heartbreaking stories and there's some hilarious stories. The Napper. This was my boss who fell asleep in every meeting. It could be a large venue and it could be a small venue. And people would be like, what? Are you serious? I was like, you can call my mother. She has all the receipts of my career. I talk to my mom every day.

16:06.78
Mita Mallick
And even when I was writing this chapter, my mom was like, don't you remember he said this? This was years ago. And I love that my mom remembers these stories. But the napper, it's funny, right? like It's kind of hilarious. It's outrageous. How is this person sleeping on the job, literally?

16:22.39
Mita Mallick
And in the beginning, I had a lot of empathy because I was trying to understand why he would fall asleep. Is it that he's narcoleptic? Is it that he has a substance abuse um issue that he's dealing with?

16:33.84
Mita Mallick
does Is he fighting with his partner? Is he sleeping on the floor? Like what's happening that he's doing this? And it's really a story of complete disengagement. And what happens when you have an employee that completely does the downward spiral and is like the middle finger about work?

16:50.38
Mita Mallick
And they're showing up to every day to work behaving this way. And there's that famous quote that says, your culture becomes defined by the worst behavior you're willing to tolerate.

17:01.30
Mita Mallick
And that is what happened because he was a manager. And so he was also infecting the culture. It just spreads. It's so contagious. And so for me, while that's like a fun chapter to write, it was hilarious.

17:11.83
Mita Mallick
And also, like, i can't remember, can't believe these things happened. I'm like remembering all this stuff that he didn't said.

17:15.33
Betsy Hamm
happened.

17:17.55
Mita Mallick
But one of the things I talk about, in the double emails at midnight is that it's it's packed with research and tips and tools for leaders. And Michael Murphy of Harvard University asks this really powerful question that I included in the book, which is, if you if someone is so disengaged, why don't we have the courage to take them out to lunch, coffee, hop on a Zoom, and just ask how they're doing and ask them this question, what would it take to make you excited about working here again?

17:47.82
Mita Mallick
Like, what a powerful question just to check in with someone. And we all have feelings. I'm not going to be like, Betsy, I can't believe you keep showing up late. And you're never at the team meetings. You don't respond to the emails like in sort of that snarky, like annoyed way versus like, Betsy, I just wanted to see how you're doing and ask you.

18:06.59
Mita Mallick
And stick to the facts. I've observed the following things. I've observed that you haven't made it to the, make it to the last three team meetings. I've noticed that you don't respond to some of the urgent deadlines that we need. And I have to go to your team members. Like you see what I'm doing. I'm acting like a video recorder. I'm just being very practical and saying, here are the things I'm observing, what's going on and how can I help? And I wish we had the courage to do that more. You either help someone find the joy back at work,

18:37.24
Mita Mallick
Find that spark again, recommit, or you help them move on to what they're meant to do next.

18:43.58
Betsy Hamm
No, I love that. And that's so true. It's seeking understand, right? What maybe there's a perspective that you don't have, I know. But also, I've been in that situation where somebody just needed to have that freedom to be like, you know what? this I don't want to be here anymore. You know, for whatever reason, professionally, personally.

19:01.88
Betsy Hamm
But sometimes people need that space be able to have those conversations. and And to your point, you're not aggressive. You're not blaming them. It's just seeking to understand what their perspective is.

19:14.83
Mita Mallick
Yes, absolutely.

19:16.56
Betsy Hamm
I got to ask though, with the napper. Where was his boss? Hhis boss never saw him falling asleep in meetings?

19:26.45
Mita Mallick
Well, then now he did he did. She did. And at one point, she screamed his name re really loudly, and he woke up in a start. That's also in that chapter. And i just to to this day, I just don't understand why she didn't help him move on.

19:34.25
Betsy Hamm
Oh gosh.

19:38.31
Mita Mallick
And people have all kinds of excuses.

19:38.73
Betsy Hamm
Right.

19:40.11
Mita Mallick
I'm waiting for another round of layoffs. I'm waiting for Mita to resign on her own. I actually can't have Mita leave now because I'll lose that headcount. Her team's carrying the weight.

19:50.51
Mita Mallick
It's fine. Or we have other plans. or eat You've heard the litany of excuses.

19:53.73
Betsy Hamm
ah hundred percent That's wild.

19:54.12
Mita Mallick
Right. Lignan excuses. But to this day, I'm like, he's falling asleep in your meetings and you're shouting his name, trying to wake him up to get him to answer a question. Like, I don't even get it like that to me to this day is the understand why he stayed as long as he did.

20:10.31
Mita Mallick
Yeah.

20:10.51
Betsy Hamm
Right. Well, that's crazy. So let's talk about you. So you bravely admit that you were the bad boss at times too. So how did you recognize those moments and what did you do to change or make sure you don't do it in the future?

20:22.26
Mita Mallick
Sure. So the last chapter is me. I'm the boss who was grieving and couldn't show up for her team. And I talk about how suddenly in 2017, I lost my dad with one phone call from my mom. My entire life changed. And we don't talk enough about grief in our home, in our community, certainly not in our workplaces. At the time, I had three-day bereavement leave policy for this company.

20:45.98
Mita Mallick
I was lucky. My team rallied around me and I took three weeks off, but that's not the case for everybody. And that's also, Another wonderful example of you know leaders who do the right thing when no one's looking over your shoulder. like you don't need to check an employee handbook to do the right thing. like Someone suddenly lost someone they love, rally around, support them. But when I went back to work, I'll never forget, my boss then asked me like a series of questions, which were totally...

21:12.88
Mita Mallick
awful and intrusive. Like, how did he die? How did it happen? Why did it happen? Like all these things. And then it was like, oh, you have your mojo back. I'm glad to see you smiling. So it's like clear that I couldn't be sad.

21:23.47
Mita Mallick
And I buried the grief. Like I was like burying it, thinking I could leave it at home, show up at work. And if anyone's been on a grief journey and grief comes in so many forms, it doesn't

21:32.79
Betsy Hamm
ah

21:33.83
Mita Mallick
happen that way. Grief is relentless. Grief is inconvenient. Grief can explode. And so all of the behaviors I talk about in the book, I started exhibiting. I was micromanaging details that didn't matter. I remember like 30 minutes before a big leadership meeting, I changed all these things in the deck and my team's like, what's going on?

21:53.47
Mita Mallick
I was disengaged, wouldn't show up at work for days and then come back. I screamed and yelled at people. I'm not proud of that. And what ended up happening is during that time, someone who was a very high performer on my team resigned. And to see the exit interview notes was the wake-up call. And other things were happening where people were saying, I was in pain.

22:12.64
Mita Mallick
And when you are not taking care of yourself and when you're in pain in any form, that is when these bad behaviors come. It's like stress induced. like that It all goes back to that. like I keep saying that the foundation of really good leadership is taking care of ourselves. Because if we don't take care of ourselves, we can't take care of each other or anyone else for that matter.

22:37.36
Betsy Hamm
So I have ask about Medusa just because of the name, right? That's very intriguing, I can't wait to read that chapter.

22:41.28
Mita Mallick
Yes.

22:43.02
Betsy Hamm
So tell me about Medusa.

22:44.78
Mita Mallick
ah So Medusa, well, there was no one in my point up until that time working for her, not my parents, not my husband, not my brother, not my friends. No one had ever screamed and yelled at me in that way.

22:57.62
Mita Mallick
She screamed, she yelled, she publicly, privately berated, humiliated people. She was the equal opportunity bully. Some bullies divide and conquer. They isolate, right? sheriff The sheriff was like that. He was a bully who isolated people. She was like rip roaring on the floor, everybody.

23:15.35
Mita Mallick
She threw a Chanel shoe at my colleague, drew story. She would throw pens in meetings, temper tantrums. And what was really interesting about that moment in my career is that For the first few months, I showed up to work scared every single day.

23:32.15
Mita Mallick
Imagine it's sort of this feeling. I live in New Jersey. We have a lot of black bears that will be around. And like, there'll be, oh my God, black bear in your backyard or on your porch or eating in your trash can. And it's like that like that that visceral reaction, the adrenaline rush.

23:46.81
Mita Mallick
So when we're scared, our body has like a visceral reaction. And I was like that every day at work. And so that drove me to work harder. because I wanted to outpace her. I wanted to overachieve. I wanted to exceed the goals. So she left me row alone. But what you end up realizing is that you can't outwork a bully.

24:10.79
Mita Mallick
And she was going to get upset no matter what. And so then you're tired of being scared. And so here's what I'll say. Fear drives short-term results. It absolutely does. I just went through what was happening with me.

24:21.88
Mita Mallick
But then what happens is, You start to get tired. You start to go under the radar. You start to think, it doesn't matter what I do. She's going to yell at me anyways. You start to slowly get and dis disengaged.

24:33.53
Mita Mallick
It's like that flame in a candle. The light is flickering. It's like fading. right That's how you feel. And then that's how fear absolutely kills culture in the long term. And you know it was a very large company. And I remember the first team she managed was about 12 people.

24:51.37
Mita Mallick
They all left. Within like 18 months, that entire team turned over, was gone. Then they moved her over to a second team of another 12 to 14 people. I was voluntold. I had no choice. I was moved to that team.

25:03.89
Mita Mallick
What do you think happened then? 16 months later, everybody's gone. Again, everyone's left that team.

25:11.97
Betsy Hamm
So if you have any of these bosses that we're talking about that people are going to read in the book, besides leaving, that's the obvious choice. What are some other tactics or tools that people can use if they're dealing with one of these

25:23.76
Mita Mallick
Yeah.

25:25.52
Mita Mallick
I love that question because i dedicated the book to my kids and you'll read the forward when you read the book. And as a mother, coach, friend, leader, I wouldn't advise that you resign every time you have a bad boss. Like context matters, situation matters.

25:43.58
Mita Mallick
If you are working for the Medusa or for Shera, Or Tony Soprano, who you'll hear about in the book, another bad boss who really impacted my mental health. Those are more moments where you have to sort of think about, how long i how long am I going to take this because I'm losing pieces of myself?

25:58.45
Mita Mallick
Now, if you worked for me many years ago, and I'm sorry, and I was micromanaging Mita, wasn't throwing Chanel shoes, right? There's sort of a ah spectrum of bad bosses. So in that case, you might say, I can't stand working for Mita. What am I going to do here? But I can't resign. I can't leave. It's not that bad. What's the plan?

26:15.95
Mita Mallick
The plan is the following. You're going to have an expiration date. You're going to almost do like a vision board. You're going to say, I'm going to work for micromanaging media for six months to a year. That's my commitment. I'm going to pull up my resume.

26:27.29
Mita Mallick
I'm going to pull it up and actually create bullet points of what I want to accomplish. Isn't that cool? In the next six to 12 months.

26:33.58
Betsy Hamm
Bye-bye.

26:33.85
Mita Mallick
So I'm committing to myself. Take that energy and say, here's what going to do. Get your resume updated. Always, always, always. I don't care if you're happy in your job. Always have the resume updated. Start also networking within the company.

26:46.36
Mita Mallick
Start finding other leaders and peers where you could be doing interesting projects and working with them. And then start to activate your external network. You should always be looking. I mean, particularly in this market, always be looking.

26:58.04
Mita Mallick
But I think that expiration date is important. And then trying to take that energy that can be really, it can create the downward spiral. You can end up becoming the napper.

27:07.11
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

27:08.57
Mita Mallick
Maybe not to that degree. You could be so like irritated and happy and just start to spiral. So you don't want to get there. And then last piece of advice is when you're in a tough situation at work, whether it's you're being micromanaged, you're being screamed at, yelled at,

27:23.04
Mita Mallick
all kinds of bad boss behaviors that you were the target of, it can really chip away your confidence. I was just talking to a friend this morning about this. like It can really chip away your confidence. And so find something outside of work that sparks joy for you, that helps you continue to maintain your confidence. For me, that's writing.

27:41.11
Mita Mallick
It could be volunteering in your local community. It could be being a coach for your kid's team or for the local school. It could be rediscovering a childhood hobby, or just really embracing something new that you can consistently do that makes you feel happy.

27:58.38
Betsy Hamm
Oh my gosh, that is amazing advice. I love that so much.

28:01.73
Mita Mallick
Thank you.

28:01.89
Betsy Hamm
So when people read your book, what is the big takeaway you want them to walk away with or what do you want them to do after they read your book?

28:08.24
Mita Mallick
Yeah, I mean, listen, it's really easy to nickname your bad boss a Disney villain or a Marvel character. I've certainly done that. I want everyone to read this book and then look in the mirror and think about what if I'm doing one thing that's capping the potential of my team or peers?

28:23.72
Mita Mallick
Am i willing to sit in the silence and just think about that, that there might be one way in which I'm behaving that's not optimal? I think most people reading the book aren't going to be the sheriff or Medusa, but we're going to have sort of a wide range of behaviors. I want us to take accountability, find one thing we want to work on, and share it with someone at work.

28:43.13
Mita Mallick
that you trust and say, i know I have a habit of micromanaging and I really want to work on it this year. And Betsy, I'd love for you to hold me accountable and I'm giving you the space to do that. When you see me saying that or doing this, please, please say something and help me.

28:59.23
Betsy Hamm
That's soo great. and And to your point, that makes it um actionable and something that's positive, right? That it's fun to read about the characters.

29:05.83
Mita Mallick
Yeah.

29:07.76
Betsy Hamm
They weren't characters, they're real life people.

29:07.94
Mita Mallick
Yeah.

29:09.72
Betsy Hamm
 So by the time this episode is out, your book is out.

29:
So where can everybody find your book and more information about you?

29:21.67
Mita Mallick
Yeah, you can find it on Amazon. You can find it at Barnes and Noble. You can find it anywhere you buy your books, local independent booksellers. And you can find me on LinkedIn. It's my preferred social media platform. I love meeting new people and meetamalek.com. And I am doing speaking engagements on the book.

29:36.68
Mita Mallick
So would welcome any messages I'm hearing from you. Thanks so much for this amazing conversation.

29:42.01
Betsy Hamm
Thank you so much for being here. i your Life is crazy right now. can't wait to read the book. So thank you.

29:47.21
Mita Mallick
Thank you.