Overcoming Limiting Beliefs with Jill Avey

00:30.55
Betsy Hamm
 Jill Avey, welcome to Loud and Lifted. Thank you so much for being here.

00:41.36
Jill
Thanks so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to talking.

00:44.02
Betsy Hamm
Yes. So, you know, Loud and Lifted is all about women supporting women. And of course, a lot of professional development conversations from women who have been there and done that and just leadership lessons that we can learn. And that's literally your job.

00:58.77
Betsy Hamm
You support women and you're helping them grow professionally. So tell us a little bit about what you do.

01:06.10
Jill
It's true. That's what I think about all day, every day. And you can ask my husband, it's even in evenings and weekends. I'm just sort of obsessed with how we can help women move up through the the corporate ladder basically. And it, um,

01:23.47
Jill
And I say that because it's not always the corporate ladder. Sometimes it's, you know, heading off to do an entrepreneurial thing or, you know, there's so many different ways that we can make a living and be fabulously successful in what success means to us.

01:38.14
Jill
And so that's one of the things that i really love is um to help women find what that is. And, you know, if that is getting promoted within an organization,

01:49.05
Jill
how can they get that visibility and have people see what their true potential is? Because I feel like so many women get overlooked because they're not that classic male model that shows you know that that executive presence that's kind of the classic mold that we're trying to fit in sometimes.

01:59.97
Betsy Hamm
Thank you.

02:06.81
Jill
And the truth is that we don't have to fit into it. We can do it our way and bring our unique talents to the workforce and do what we love the way we love it and still be able to be successful within an organization.

02:20.34
Betsy Hamm
Oh my gosh, I love that. I love that that's like your daily focus. That's that's very cool and what ah ability to make an impact. And it's funny, I grew up in a very big corporate organization, went to a very small ah corporate organization and didn't really think about the entrepreneurial piece of it and like sort of running your own business until this recent phase of my career.

02:40.31
Betsy Hamm
But it's so interesting, especially starting this podcast, the the women I talk to, whether they are running their own clothing company or, you know, CEOs, everyone sort of has the same battles that they have to fight or a lot of the internal, will call them demons, that they're dealing with. So as you've gone through your career supporting women, what are some of the biggest things or challenges that you see um really across the board um that are really stopping women or making it a little bit more challenging for them in order to grow?

03:11.15
Jill
I think it's a good question. I think that the overarching thing that women come to me for is confidence. And how do we build confidence?

03:21.56
Jill
I think that's the tricky part because I think for women –

03:23.47
Betsy Hamm
Right.

03:26.43
Jill
that confidence is built in many ways. ah Men kind of do this fake it till you make it thing. And then they, you know, men are really great at learning by doing and women tend to like to learn it first and then do it.

03:39.58
Jill
And it's just how we're all raised. And so i think there's a, there's a certain, you know, kind of recipe that helps women understand to start to see themselves as that bigger version of themselves.

03:52.84
Jill
You know, I was just listening to this fabulous book today and she said, she used the analogy of a snake, how a snake grows and then they shed their skin as they're growing more and more, they're shedding their skin and that allows them the ability to get bigger and they can't get bigger until they shed that skin. And so I think that's one of the things that that we really need to do as women. And the shedding of the skin is the mindset work that we really need to do to be able to see ourselves in that bigger role. Because a lot of women and will hold themselves back just thinking, oh, no, that's not me. You know, oh, I couldn't do that. Well, I don't really see myself as that.

04:30.79
Jill
You know, I could never. I mean, I told myself when I was VP, I was a number three person in the company. And I said, I never wanted to be the top person. And guess what I am today is, you know, the leader of a company and I am way more visible than I would ever have been at that, you know, leading that company.

04:43.44
Betsy Hamm
Right.

04:49.54
Jill
And so it's um all of this is just mindset work and limiting beliefs that hold us back. And so I think that that's That's underlying everything.

05:00.63
Jill
Like there's a whole bunch of tactics and things that we need to do and strategies and, you know, navigating politics and building your network and, you know, ah your visibility and how you're presenting yourself and all there's all of that.

05:13.51
Betsy Hamm
Right.

05:14.51
Jill
But you can't do any of that until you get the mindset piece done first.

05:18.69
Betsy Hamm
Oh, that's, that makes so much sense. And, you know, every single episode has talked about confidence and, you know, so obviously the women we're talking to are in higher positions or started their own company. So whether they make it, they make it, they still talk about the importance of confidence. And to your point, it's great for like, oh yes, I need to be more confident, but how do you do that? And the mindset work is, is very interesting. So how does somebody even start to focus on the mindset?

05:46.46
Jill
One of the first things to do is to think about your limiting beliefs. And so, you know, you can just have ask at GPT what are limiting beliefs and it can give you a list of them and you can kind of check off. Yeah, I got that one. I got that one.

06:00.18
Jill
I remember doing that. i It was a list of about 100 and i checked off like 65 of them. And

06:06.64
Betsy Hamm
Oh, so you're saying literally ask chat TPT limiting beliefs.

06:06.67
Jill
and so

06:09.50
Betsy Hamm
Like that's the prompt.

06:09.79
Jill
Yeah. Yeah. You, yeah.

06:10.94
Betsy Hamm
Oh, okay.

06:12.02
Jill
Like, you know, because it's, you can Google this stuff too, but think we all do GPT now.

06:17.39
Betsy Hamm
Okay.

06:17.47
Jill
So, oh so, you know, you can kind of look at the list and say, okay, which one of those feels true to me. And then you can go about flipping those.

06:29.15
Jill
And in our program, we do a lot of work on what's called the saboteurs. And this is some work with positive intelligence. It's worked by Shirzad Shamim. And, We use an app guided program. It's ah it's called the PQ bootcamp that we do.

06:44.27
Jill
And it's some of my clients' favorite work because these limiting beliefs are all formed by saboteurs. And there's yeah the brilliance of Sherzad's work is that he boiled down, he did the factor analysis and boiled down all the saboteurs to 10 different saboteurs that are kind of universal that, you know, we, and we, we develop these saboteurs as kids because we're,

07:07.39
Jill
You know, when you're in such a vulnerable situation and you don't really understand the world, you kind of make up stories as to why things happen. And so these saboteurs are universal experiences that we all have as kids from being vulnerable.

07:20.84
Jill
And they stay with us into adulthood.

07:22.08
Betsy Hamm
Interesting.

07:23.46
Jill
They stay with us forever. But how we work with them changes and and they can really hold you back until you start doing this work. Because

07:31.50
Betsy Hamm
interesting

07:32.39
Jill
It's that like the the universal one that we have is the called the judge. And so that's that voice. It's like, oh, yeah, you know, you're never going to make it. You know it's because the judge judges you, the other people and the environment. so um It's that kind of negative Nancy voice in our heads that's always dragging us down and always saying, well, it's not going to work out anyhow, so why bother?

07:52.02
Betsy Hamm
Yep. yep

07:56.86
Jill
and And that's a voice that you know basically runs all day every day in most human beings' heads. And so it's... When we really start to work with that and learn how to say, okay, I hear you, but I'm going to go ahead and do this other thing anyhow. and you know and Or that's not true because. And you know we can we can start to have you know kind of some some relationship with that saboteur person.

08:24.18
Jill
And, you know, I, I call it, you know, we're kind of dancing with it instead of having a be like kind of boat anchor that's like dragging us down. So it's, that's,

08:33.61
Betsy Hamm
Interesting. So there's 10 saboteurs and then that plays into the limited beliefs.

08:38.68
Jill
yeah. And so, you know, when we have these limiting beliefs, we can also flip those.

08:39.74
Betsy Hamm
Okay.

08:46.24
Jill
So let's say i have a belief of, um, I'm always disorganized. You can flip it and just start telling yourself, actually, I'm quite organized.

08:57.87
Jill
And it's not going to feel true. i mean, some of them I've worked on, you know, I'm like laughing at myself as I'm saying it to start.

09:04.14
Betsy Hamm
As we say it.

09:05.89
Jill
But it's amazing when you start telling yourself, oh, actually... So a real life example is my calendar. terrible the calendars. And I used to be the person that, you know, they would call me, I'd be out shopping for some office supplies for the trade show. and they would call me and they'd be like, the printer's here with your proofs, you know, and sitting in the lobby waiting for you. And because i you know, I have ADHD, so I have a time blind list. And so, you know, I used to always tell myself I was terrible with calendars. And so what I did to flip that is I said, that's not like me.

09:37.79
Jill
And whenever I had a calendar snafu, I was like, that's not like me. Actually, I'm really good with my calendar. And so that that was the one that I was like literally laughing at myself when I started saying it. But honestly, i i still have occasional calendar snafu, but nothing like what it used to be.

09:52.91
Jill
And I'm really aware of my calendar all the time. ah you know, being a coach, I do have to be aware of it all the time.

09:57.15
Betsy Hamm
but Right.

09:57.57
Jill
But but it's it's really changed how I feel about it and how I see myself. And so that makes a difference. And it makes you start behaving differently when you start telling yourself a different story.

10:06.75
Betsy Hamm
Interesting.

10:12.97
Betsy Hamm
Oh, I like that. You start behaving differently when you start telling yourself a different story. That's good.

10:18.51
Jill
do.

10:18.59
Betsy Hamm
That's definitely one of our, that'll be one of our key takeaways for sure. um And it's funny because I was thinking as you were saying that an example that comes to my mind is when I was first starting off my career as a marketing person and of course marketing people, especially 20-some years ago would get a bad rap about money or are um accounting or just not understanding numbers, right?

10:37.45
Betsy Hamm
And, oh, you you don't understand marketing or you only understand marketing, you don't understand numbers.

10:38.14
Jill
Mm-hmm.

10:41.85
Betsy Hamm
And you start to believe that. And I just maybe wasn't exposed to it. And and i was like, you know what? I'm not to be that marketing person who doesn't understand the finances and the numbers. So Granted, I went to get my MBA, which was helpful, but I stopped.

10:55.48
Betsy Hamm
I would correct people. I'm like, I'm not bad with numbers. I'm fine. Like, I i can review spreadsheets. I can review P&Ls. Like, I'm not going to necessarily create it, but, like, I'm fine. And I had like, convince myself and do a little work on this side to get better. but But, yeah, it was like, and if you say that, i feel like other people are saying that. Like, if you're telling me you're bad at your calendar and you missed something, i'm like oh, well, yeah, Jill, you're always bad at your calendar. Like, it's just people start to believe that around you.

11:22.21
Jill
Exactly. It's cognitive dissonance is what they call it, where you want to behave like what you say or what you think. And so when you start changing what you think, you'll instinctively start to change your behavior because you but your brain wants to connect those two together and have it be true.

11:41.08
Betsy Hamm
Interesting. That's so cool. So what else do you think um is one of the challenges that women overcome in order to be successful? That's a big one. That's a huge one. We could talk probably an hour about but just that.

11:51.44
Jill
Yes.

11:51.88
Betsy Hamm
But what else do you continue to see that you you're helping women in leadership work through?

11:56.87
Jill
One of the things that we work on is executive presence because um often women don't put enough time on that. and They get criticized for executive presence for a lot of reasons, and only one of them is that they actually need more executive presence.

12:09.37
Jill
A lot of times it's code for we don't see you as a leader. And that can be that you're not acting strategically enough. that can be a lot of things. But when it actually comes to executive presence, we do need that.

12:20.54
Jill
And we do need to level it up at every level that we're at. And so you know thinking about the presence that you need to be portraying as that next level leader, because

12:25.77
Betsy Hamm
Interesting.

12:32.52
Jill
The truth is that women get hired based on their performance and men get hired based on their potential. And so you have to show them you can do the job before you're going to get the job.

12:43.86
Betsy Hamm
interesting

12:44.61
Jill
And part of that's having the right presence for it.

12:44.87
Betsy Hamm
and And can you give a few details? i totally get executive presence, and I can't tell you how many times I heard, especially when I went to the big organization, people being told that. And sometimes you're like, okay, I can see that. and the next level, other times you're like, is that your excuse for strategy or whatever? So, you know, how what are some of those elements that that tend to hold women back when it comes to executive presence?

13:07.39
Jill
So let's define it first for those who aren't familiar with it.

13:10.53
Betsy Hamm
That's good.

13:11.01
Jill
Executive presence is that special something that tells people that you're the leader and you've seen it. You've seen somebody walk into the room and you're like, oh, they're the boss. And you can see it in pictures. And so it's it's hard to define because it's a feeling.

13:26.77
Jill
And ah so Sylvia Ann Hewlett has the most simple um definition of it. It's communication plus gravitas plus appearance. Now, what is gravitas?

13:37.92
Jill
That's a little bit hard to define as well, but that's,

13:39.00
Betsy Hamm
Right, right. Can you spell that too? I'm just kidding.

13:43.84
Jill
but it's, it's, comprised of, so i in our program, we use the Bates communication model um because it's a little bit more sophisticated as far as it has a lot more nuance to it. It has 15 different facets.

13:58.26
Jill
The facets that I find that women most often need to work on is the assertiveness piece, which is something that actually I think almost everybody needs to work on. It's not just women, but it is something that um women, it's hard to be assertive because assertiveness is about taking on healthy conflict and resolving things in a way that doesn't shut others down.

14:21.62
Jill
And so, you know, we have a lot of people pleasing and perfectionism kind of influences and how, and how women are raised. So that's something that's really common is that women feel like they don't want to make waves often because of those things. So that, that one can be a big challenge.

14:38.77
Jill
And then authenticity is another one that's really a big deal because women want to feel authentic. And they don't want to give up who, you know, who they are and their, their talents to try to fit into some mold.

14:52.90
Jill
And so that's why we, we work a lot on how can you bring your authentic self in, you know, what is your authentic self?

14:59.33
Betsy Hamm
What is it?

14:59.43
Jill
Like really understanding yourself.

14:59.72
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

15:00.99
Jill
Like, you know, we walk around in these bodies all day, but we don't necessarily know ourselves. And so that's, that's actually the first step in our program is getting to know yourself. And then we work on an executive presence, um,

15:12.00
Jill
And so when when you're really confident about who you are and that you know who you are then you can bring that out to the world in a much bigger way. And you know thinking about how you project yourself and you know how how you connect with others is a is also um really important.

15:30.50
Jill
And then um you know just how you're treating people. So what's the actual social intelligence that you're bringing to your work? That's important to you.

15:41.08
Betsy Hamm
And do women tend to be stronger at the social emotional intelligence and men as leaders?

15:48.37
Jill
I find that in in my research, ah women feel very confident in knowing what they're feeling.

15:48.62
Betsy Hamm
Or am I making that up?

15:55.98
Jill
but they're not necessarily so confident in the emotional regulation piece. So sometimes the emotions are taking the reins and that's the piece that they're struggling with more.

15:59.73
Betsy Hamm
Okay.

16:04.49
Jill
For guys, it's more knowing what they're feeling is the challenge. I think everybody struggles with social intelligence though, which is understanding your impact on others.

16:13.00
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

16:13.16
Jill
And so that's something that as leaders rise up higher and higher in the organization, the social intelligence becomes really important because it's hard to know what your impact is the farther away you get from people and you have that leader in impact where everything is bigger because you're the leader and you're, you know, your voice is louder, you're, you know, everything is amplified.

16:25.89
Betsy Hamm
sure

16:37.04
Jill
So it's harder to, um, to understand that that's a work a lot of coaches are really working on with, uh, with the C-suite leaders.

16:45.21
Betsy Hamm
I remember years ago in my career, my she was a woman ah vice president, and she said to me, people, as i was I was trying to grow in the organization, she's like, people are watching you.

16:56.25
Betsy Hamm
And she's like, whether it's people above you who are seeing if you have the ability to move on to the next step. She's like, but people at your level and lower were watching you. Like, they're learning from you. They're learning. judging you, good or bad, you know, and I'll never forget her saying that to me.

17:07.88
Jill
yeah

17:09.86
Betsy Hamm
I just, I was like so taken aback by it because of course it's true, but you don't think about it. Like, yeah, people are watching you and they're making opinions based on your presence and how you're showing up and how you're communicating.

17:20.59
Betsy Hamm
um But, you know, I think it's something that after she said that to me, I was more aware of, and sometimes it's a little weird, but I i kept that. And especially as I continue to grow, and roles and especially, you know, higher level leadership.

17:31.55
Betsy Hamm
It's like, okay, I need to be a good example and I need to make sure that I didn't roll my eyes in a meeting or, you know, just like those little things that you often take for granted or just that's what adds up to how you um are represented, how you're representing yourself and and how people talk about you.

17:37.10
Jill
Mm-hmm.

17:47.36
Betsy Hamm
I think that's, I think it's so important. It's and easy to get ah hung up on the stuff that maybe isn't as relevant to, you know, that part of it, but just knowing like, okay, those little things all add up of how you talk in a meeting and how you cut in or disorganize or or how you cut somebody off. It's just all, it's all part of it. So.

18:07.77
Jill
It's really important to understand that.

18:10.45
Betsy Hamm
You made a point, and actually it was perfect timing because I got an email from you today, about people pleasing and how our schedule is often run by the ability that we can't say no and the busyness of time. So let's talk a little bit about that whole busyness trap in in the people pleasing piece that I think women tend to fall into.

18:31.20
Jill
Yeah, ah this, um in my research, I saw that this was something that really held women back that they weren't always aware of. It wasn't something that women were asking me for, but it was something that I witnessed.

18:43.69
Jill
And so i made a whole module in my program that's actually one of people's favorite ah work because we tend to put so much on our plate. And I think that people pleasing is a big part of that, that we have a hard time saying no. is you know We feel an incredible pressure to say yes to things, for people to like us. to you know Women are socialized to be helpful, pleasing, and nice.

19:10.98
Jill
And there's a certain amount of that that we really have to actually do in the workplace to be successful.

19:11.02
Betsy Hamm
Oh.

19:17.85
Jill
And so figuring out how much is enough is really the trick here. And so um there's three there's three unhelpful habits, I call them.

19:29.25
Jill
People-pleasing, perfectionism, and overvaluing expertise. And the overvaluing expertise piece is, oh, if I just get a little more education, if I get another certification, if I can just do a better job, then then it will be okay. And a lot of times we're putting more on our plate because of that.

19:47.94
Jill
And we might, you know, have volunteering, we might have, you know, extra school, you know, and maybe we're not learning the right things even, but we're trying harder and harder trying to get there.

20:01.15
Jill
And perfectionism, ah yeah, perfectionism is, ah and so to define that one is um just that going, it like it it's important to do a good job, but going to the nth degree on things that can actually really reduce your followership because people don't want to work for a leader that they can never please.

20:01.17
Betsy Hamm
So how do we control that?

20:22.93
Jill
And so that can be a huge problem.

20:23.03
Betsy Hamm
oh

20:24.81
Jill
And you can, you know, I know i this is something I've suffered with myself and I've lost great vendors because of it. And, you know, I had big lessons of like how much is enough because we aren't really, we know we have to do more, but we don't really know where that upper limit is and what's enough.

20:40.70
Jill
So ah how to get, it how to get over that.

20:40.93
Betsy Hamm
you

20:43.88
Jill
This is, that's a really good question. So yeah, My advice is to figure out what's really important for you to shift from being perfect to excellent and to learn how to say no in a way that will keep the doors open and not shut them.

21:03.91
Betsy Hamm
That's really good. And even from a priority standpoint, right? Like I can think of, mean, I've done it myself too, where you feel like if you're producing so much and you're involved in so much, it just, it shows your value or shows your worth. And especially think earlier in your career, when you're trying to prove yourself, like it's just like, yep, I'll do that. I'll take that on. And it's just that constant yes.

21:23.23
Betsy Hamm
And that first of all, you're probably not going to do anything great because you have too many things going on.

21:26.82
Jill
Yes.

21:27.20
Betsy Hamm
But at the end of the day, then you just become this workhorse. And that's kind of where people keep you. They kind of like hold you at that position versus being able to think bigger, think strategically.

21:38.25
Jill
This is a big problem with the women that I work with, because i and I tend to work with women at the director and VP level who want to move up and they'll get stuck at their level because they're so valuable where they are and they're not taking the time.

21:53.49
Jill
They're working too hard in the, in the job and they're not working on their career and they're not taking the time to create the relationships that they need to move up to the next level. And so it's a really important one.

22:04.39
Betsy Hamm
Interesting. And that's a very different skill set, right? Like I think there's been times in my career where you see somebody who's really good at executing and doing tasks.

22:07.83
Jill
Mm-hmm.

22:11.34
Betsy Hamm
And that's great. You need those people, but that might not be the same person who can lead a team, think strategically, connect the dots, go out and work on their career. So there's kind of two different skill sets.

22:20.31
Jill
Yeah.

22:21.78
Betsy Hamm
And sometimes I think you can transfer those, you know, move to the next level, but then sometimes it's not. And that's okay too. um But I think it's trying to figure out where you want to grow and what you want to do.

22:33.30
Jill
Yeah, that's a good point. Like figuring out if you like being the doer or the leader is an important step because if you don't value leading, you should not move up in that way.

22:37.21
Betsy Hamm
Right. Right. Right.

22:42.00
Jill
You can move up in different ways and master your craft.

22:42.49
Betsy Hamm
right

22:46.34
Jill
But it's you know it's helpful to figure out if you wanna be in leadership or not for the love of leadership, because if you don't love it, oh, it's gonna be miserable.

22:51.69
Betsy Hamm
right

22:54.43
Betsy Hamm
Yeah, don't do it for the title. Don't do it for the money, right?

22:56.85
Jill
No.

22:56.95
Betsy Hamm
Like you're going to be miserable. There's a like a lot that comes on with with leading team or, you know having more responsibility. I think sometimes people forget that part. They're like, oh, more money. That sounds good.

23:06.48
Jill
Yeah, but if you don't like working with humans i you don't like problem solving, then you're gonna get burned out.

23:06.56
Betsy Hamm
ah and Don't realize what that entails.

23:12.31
Betsy Hamm
Right. Exactly. So how do we think bigger and how do we have that permission to expand and grow? Sort of back to the snake. Yeah.

23:21.62
Jill
Yeah. Thinking bigger um is a continual practice and in my mind. It's something that you always have to be thinking about. One of the things that's a really great habit to do is I call it daily wins journaling.

23:35.63
Jill
And just at the end of every day, I'm an advocate of planning your day at the end, you know planning your next day at the end of the day. That's how I sleep well every night. But also in that process, writing down three, maybe five things that are um that are going well, things that went well today.

23:53.73
Jill
It's incredibly confidence building to day after day after day, look at what you did well. And we so rarely do that. We accomplish something and then we run onto the next thing without even of moment's you know thought about how did I do that?

24:01.64
Betsy Hamm
That's awesome. Yep. yep

24:08.53
Jill
What was it that I brought to this? And you know just stopping to think about that every day really helps you to start believing in yourself and believing in what you can do.

24:19.06
Jill
and One, one saying that I love to remember is confidence doesn't mean that I know how to do it all. Confidence means that I'm going to be able to figure it out when I get there.

24:30.20
Betsy Hamm
I love that. That's great. And you said you write those down, right? That's like you're writing your wins down.

24:35.20
Jill
Yeah.

24:36.45
Betsy Hamm
I think that's really important. And it's funny because I just reminded me early in my career, I had a boss who told me to start a victory folder. And this is maybe when everything wasn't so digital. um But then I did have it on an email at some point where whether Maybe it was a nice email somebody sent to you saying, great job on this project, or just something that was positive.

24:53.29
Betsy Hamm
I'd put it this folder, whether it was you know paper folder email. And i would just kind of do it as I went. And then every once in a while, maybe you're having a bad day, I'd pick it up and be like, oh, okay, I don't suck.

25:03.56
Jill
Yeah.

25:03.97
Betsy Hamm
It was just sort of that, like, because you're right, we're moving so quickly and we forget those wins and we forget those victories. So I love the idea of doing that on a daily basis because there's always something.

25:14.86
Betsy Hamm
um But I think that's great to think about it and then also write it down because that goes back to that confidence building and we all need to focus on building the confidence.

25:23.38
Jill
You know, i love that because one of the things that i actually even advocate is put making a notebook with your victories. And, you know, if it's an email, you can print it out and put it in there, but it's something that you can just flip through on those days where everything seems to be going wrong and you need that reminder.

25:30.48
Betsy Hamm
Nice.

25:33.44
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

25:40.94
Jill
And it's just right there and you can just take it off the shelf and look at it and not, you know, like having it all pre-compiled is really important. And one of the other things that I like to recommend is to keep track of your wins in a separate notebook so that you've got just page after page after page of things that are going well and that you've done well.

25:59.00
Jill
And that's really fun to look through it as well.

26:01.16
Betsy Hamm
That's awesome. we're going to have a win notebook and we're going to write down the things that we're doing well. I love that. And ah we're going to also do the mindset work, right?

26:11.26
Betsy Hamm
So those those are like our kind of like our things that are very actionable that all help go back to building that confidence.

26:14.75
Jill
Yeah.

26:16.63
Betsy Hamm
So those are all great.

26:17.22
Jill
And if you go to my YouTube channel, I do have a really popular meditation that's called your future self meditation, and it helps you to visualize what you're going to look like in the future. And it's amazing how it just sort of happens. It starts to come to life when you start to picture yourself more vividly um in that future state.

26:39.24
Betsy Hamm
Interesting. I love that. I will definitely check that out. ah You touched on this a little bit, but I find this super interesting, especially because I have teenage daughters, is the whole gender socialization and and kind of breaking the old scripts. So I think we know how we're the pleasers and the helpers, and maybe we're quietly ambitious, but how do we now as adult women, or maybe for raising girls, how do we break, and boys too, how do we break some of those gender norms that we've been socialized?

27:07.74
Jill
I love how much we're breaking them right now. And like, it's, you know, I've studied a lot about where we came from and, you know, where, you know, how we got to where we are, but I love how much that, you know, things just are really changing and shaking up.

27:11.40
Betsy Hamm
Thank you.

27:26.18
Jill
And so that is, um That's something that, I mean, I've always been one, I was kind of a tomboy growing up. So I've always been one to be pushing all that, all those norms and pushing the envelope. And I was, you know, one to, you know, do crazy sports that weren't typically things women did and, you know, stuff like that. And,

27:48.93
Jill
my aunt was a sprinkler fitter and it so it's just been um you know something I've always really enjoyed and and I just think you know when it comes to like you know women in stem and you know things like that my sister's a scientist and you know my you know my dad's an engineer so I have you know women friends that are engineers, and you know, it's just, um you know, don't ever believe that you can't do it, even if it's something that seems weird, you know, and there's always a way there's always somebody else that's done it.

28:20.32
Betsy Hamm
Right.

28:23.88
Jill
if look for the role models, because there are women who have broken every single stereotype. And so look to them and look to see what's possible rather than looking around you and seeing what everybody else is doing.

28:38.66
Betsy Hamm
That's awesome. So if you could wave your magic wand and change one thing about women in leadership and especially some of the things that you're dealing with um with your clients, like what's that one thing that you think if women could change universally, we would be all in a better place.

28:55.66
Jill
For me, it's believe that you are more than you are. Believe that you are bigger, that you can do more because we can all do more. We can all do things that are more impactful and more significant than we're doing today.

29:10.81
Jill
And even on those days when it feels overwhelming, still know in your heart that you can.

29:17.80
Betsy Hamm
That's awesome. And if you don't feel that, then that's why you should have that book of wins that you can go back and and check at. And I love that. So I hope that's a good takeaway.

29:24.95
Jill
Absolutely.

29:26.81
Betsy Hamm
Good. Well, thank you, Jill, for joining us. We could talk all day about this. But if people want to find out more about SisterSmart or want to connect with you, where should we send them to?

29:37.97
Jill
sister smart.com is our website and I'm on LinkedIn every day. That's kind of where I hang out the most.

29:43.40
Betsy Hamm
That's where we met.

29:43.71
Jill
So yes, yes. I love LinkedIn and I put a post up every day for women leaders. And um I also have a YouTube channel at sister smart leadership, which has um three seasons of my podcast.

29:59.01
Jill
And so, and that, which is also on Apple and Spotify.

29:59.43
Betsy Hamm
Nice.

30:02.73
Betsy Hamm
Great. And actually, Loud and Lifted has a new website. So now we can have your bio up on the website and we're going to link to all those things on your guest profile page. So go directly there or check out loudandliftedpodcast.com and we'll have all your information and all your links. So thank you so much for being here today.

30:20.03
Jill
Thanks so much for having me.