Leadership, Motherhood & the research behind our struggle with Dr. Linda Fedrizzi-Williams

00:00.98
Betsy Hamm
Welcome to Loud and Lifted. Linda, thank you so much for being here.

00:05.21
Linda Fedrizzi
Oh, you're welcome. I'm so excited to be part of it.

00:07.54
Betsy Hamm
um my gosh. So i was thinking back, the first time we met was actually because of a podcast and I was a guest on your podcast a few years ago.

00:15.36
Linda Fedrizzi
That's right. That is how we met.

00:17.20
Betsy Hamm
yep And that led to this beautiful relationship.

00:17.79
Linda Fedrizzi
You know, honestly, i I actually forgot about that. That's wild.

00:22.48
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

00:23.12
Linda Fedrizzi
That's how we were introduced to each other.

00:24.74
Betsy Hamm
That was how we introduced. And I remember meeting you. i didn't know you coming into the podcast. And I walked in i was like, okay, this woman is amazing. She has great energy, great presence. Obviously, you were great at being a podcast host.

00:34.46
Linda Fedrizzi
wow.

00:36.00
Betsy Hamm
Oh, and by the way, you're a president of a college. Kind of a big deal.

00:41.48
Linda Fedrizzi
You're so sweet. You're so sweet.

00:43.79
Betsy Hamm
So I was really excited for you to be able to join us on Loud and Lifted for a variety reasons. This conversation can come from a couple different directions. First of all, being the president of Central Penn College is an awesome role.

00:56.08
Linda Fedrizzi
Mm-hmm.

00:56.01
Betsy Hamm
But ah you know doing my research, I found out only 33% college presidents are women. college presidents are women

01:02.00
Linda Fedrizzi
Yeah, and that's that's up significantly. but i you know When I did my research, it was 29%. So that's up from where it was. But it you know as we you and i are going to talk about, women hold themselves back.

01:13.79
Linda Fedrizzi
So a lot of the reason there's not more women presidents is because women don't raise their hand to be presidents.

01:19.11
Betsy Hamm
Interesting.

01:20.12
Linda Fedrizzi
Yeah.

01:20.14
Betsy Hamm
I'm so excited to get into this.

01:21.33
Linda Fedrizzi
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:21.26
Betsy Hamm
So yeah, there was a lot of different ways we could approach our interview, but I heard about the research that you did when you were getting, when you're going through your dissertation and to get your doctor, to be Dr. Linda.

01:32.87
Betsy Hamm
um And it literally, when you shared it with me, it was like, is this from the first several episodes of Loud and Lifted? I mean, your research hit on it every theme that has been very prevalent for us through these early stages of Loud and Lifted.

01:41.70
Linda Fedrizzi
Yeah. a lot of lot of similar themes, a lot of similar challenges that women go through, especially women that are trying to increase themselves through their careers.

01:57.00
Linda Fedrizzi
We have the same host of challenges in our different areas of life. So, yeah.

02:02.46
Betsy Hamm
So first of all I need to ask, what it made you want to get your doctorate and be the president of a university?

02:07.79
Linda Fedrizzi
You know, it's so interesting. i When I first was going for my doctorate, I wasn't going to be a college president. i

02:13.17
Betsy Hamm
okay

02:13.79
Linda Fedrizzi
I was a faculty member. I started in radio, transitioned, started teaching at at the community college where I got my start and and worked my way up. And it was honestly because my husband and I were living paycheck to paycheck and And we're basically in in poverty, didn't even realize it. We owned a home, but we could barely afford anything. It was 2008. We had our first son. The market crashed.

02:36.81
Linda Fedrizzi
My husband was a union iron worker, so he was laid off six months a year.

02:40.38
Betsy Hamm
Right. Sorry.

02:40.69
Linda Fedrizzi
And I was sitting in a union meeting at the community college where I was a faculty member, and they put up a chart and they were showing earning potential and at each degree level how you can increase your salary.

02:53.95
Linda Fedrizzi
and I've always been intrinsically motivated, wanted careers that I can make a difference, didn't think a lot about money. But when you don't have money, you suddenly start thinking like, okay, it's it's survival.

03:05.52
Linda Fedrizzi
And so I was sitting in that meeting and saw, you know if you if you earned another degree, how you can earn and a different amount of money and salary.

03:05.77
Betsy Hamm
sorry

03:13.18
Linda Fedrizzi
And I didn't want to be in poverty anymore. So I said, I'm going to do this for our family. I'm going to go and I'm going to get a doctorate degree. And I had really wanted to be a dean of liberal arts. like that's That's where I had wanted to kind of get to.

03:26.50
Linda Fedrizzi
And then I was dean of liberal arts as I was studying and going for my dissertation. And then the more research I did, I realized women sort of stopped themselves at a certain level and I didn't want to stop anymore.

03:38.71
Linda Fedrizzi
still didn't necessarily think about being a college president, but always wanted to better my life. And so I would raise my hand at any opportunity that I had to take on more, and I would always offer to do more.

03:50.80
Linda Fedrizzi
And I think that's sort of what propelled me. Here I am.

03:53.23
Betsy Hamm
Oh my gosh. And here you are.

03:56.60
Betsy Hamm
Killing it. And a very challenging time to be in ah and higher education. So yeah, you're holding down the fort and doing an amazing job. And i'm I'm thankful that I get to be part of your world and and part of Central Penn College.

04:03.78
Linda Fedrizzi
Thank

04:07.71
Betsy Hamm
so And do you want to give a quick plug for Central Penn College? And then we're going to dig into your findings.

04:12.18
Linda Fedrizzi
Absolutely. and And part of the reason, so when I was conducting my research, I came to Central Pennsylvania and I had an opportunity to be on multiple college campuses, had a chance to come to Central Penn, was here early, started talking to students, realized, oh, these are these are people who are coming here to change their lives. They were not unlike me.

04:31.41
Linda Fedrizzi
Education was a way for them to get a ticket out of poverty and a way to and improve their lives, their families' lives. There's a lot of working adults that come here that have kids.

04:42.37
Linda Fedrizzi
And so when I met the students, I felt instantly drawn to this institution. And the day I defended my dissertation, the position for vice president of academics opened at Central Penn, and I thought, I have to be there.

04:51.18
Betsy Hamm
ah

04:52.35
Linda Fedrizzi
so

04:53.03
Betsy Hamm
Oh my gosh, that's awesome.

04:53.20
Linda Fedrizzi
Yes, we change lives. We make sure people are employed when they graduate. We have a phenomenal graduation statistic. Eighty nine percent are working in their field within a year and 98 percent are working within a year of graduating.

05:04.98
Betsy Hamm
Wow.

05:06.34
Linda Fedrizzi
So we we change a lot of lives here. Thanks.

05:08.78
Betsy Hamm
That's amazing stats. Well, congrats to you. That's that's something to be super proud of. And I just, I love the mission. That's why I got involved with Central Penn. One, because of you, but then two, when you hear about the students and you meet the students and attending any events, you're like, this is this is amazing and has a little bit of a different take than a typical institution, which I love.

05:16.23
Linda Fedrizzi
right.

05:25.58
Linda Fedrizzi
That's right. That's right.

05:26.60
Betsy Hamm
ah All right. So let's get into your findings um for when you did your dissertation.

05:29.50
Linda Fedrizzi
Yeah.

05:30.92
Betsy Hamm
Like I said, this sounded like a loud and lifted episode.

05:34.26
Linda Fedrizzi
I bet.

05:34.40
Betsy Hamm
And the first thing I thought we could dig into was the myth of balance and the reality of guilt.

05:40.89
Linda Fedrizzi
Yeah, and you hear so much about work-life balance, right? And it's something that's ingrained in you and people say they're searching for it. And I learned very quickly on there is no such thing. You're you're never going to be fully in balance. And I think when you're constantly searching for that, you're always going to feel a little bit out of whack. And so the the term that's become more popular is work-life integration.

06:03.69
Linda Fedrizzi
And it's how can you use the skills on either side um when you're a mother? How can you use the skills at work of being a mom? Or if you are at home, how can you teach your kids lessons?

06:15.02
Linda Fedrizzi
that are preparing them. But what women struggle with is something called interrole conflict. Okay, so interrole conflict, and men have it too, but it essentially is that we wear so many hats that we are always feeling when we're in one place that we should be doing something else.

06:32.74
Linda Fedrizzi
So the guilt that we feel is almost always self-imposed.

06:36.02
Betsy Hamm
Sure. Right.

06:36.61
Linda Fedrizzi
So if you're home with your kids and you know that you have a major project that's due in a week, you're home, you're outside with your kids, they're playing, you're thinking about work and you're feeling guilty that you're not spending time at work.

06:50.80
Linda Fedrizzi
Or if you left work at four o'clock because your child had a game, now you're feeling guilty that it's 4.15 and you're in the stands and you know that someone is still at work.

06:56.11
Betsy Hamm
right

07:00.78
Linda Fedrizzi
But when you're at work and your kid has a field trip and you can't make it, then you're feeling like you're not enough of a mother. And then you start talking about your significant others. If you have aging parents, you're thinking,

07:12.93
Linda Fedrizzi
You feel guilty you don't spend enough time with them. um You feel guilty because you don't want to spend time with them. Right. So you just always have this this heaviness.

07:22.76
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

07:22.92
Linda Fedrizzi
um And then when you hear about balance and what women often do is they take any of the personal time for themselves out of the equation completely.

07:22.86
Betsy Hamm
Hmm.

07:31.98
Linda Fedrizzi
because they're thinking, I either need to be giving all of myself to my family or all of myself to my job, and then there's nothing for them. And when they do take time for themselves, then they really feel guilty that they're somehow um taking advantage of people or they're doing something for themselves and they shouldn't be.

07:50.16
Linda Fedrizzi
And that leads to burnout and stress. And then when you're burnt out and you're already at that point of being so frazzled, you're not good to anybody. So I think thinking about ways where you can integrate your home life into your work life actually alleviates some of that.

08:05.83
Linda Fedrizzi
And I will tell you, for the first time in my career, being at Central Penn, I have found a way to do that.

08:11.97
Betsy Hamm
Oh.

08:12.36
Linda Fedrizzi
um Now, I work on a college, right? We are lucky. A college campus is one of the greatest places to work. But My children come to events. My husband travels to the sports teams games with us, right?

08:20.29
Betsy Hamm
Oh.

08:24.70
Linda Fedrizzi
Like he's with me. So our students know my husband and my sons.

08:28.60
Betsy Hamm
Oh.

08:28.70
Linda Fedrizzi
My kids have grown up on this campus. I had to give a panel presentation a few weeks ago and my oldest son came with me and got to watch me in action. You don't always have to separate your lives as as much as you think you do.

08:41.89
Linda Fedrizzi
And I think for a long time, women felt like people can't see me as a mom or they can't see that side of me or they're going to think differently.

08:45.24
Betsy Hamm
ah

08:48.86
Linda Fedrizzi
And it's not exactly true. so you have to find a way for that integration when it makes sense. Obviously, you don't want to bring your kid to an office meeting, but but ways where they don't have to be completely separate anymore.

08:53.64
Betsy Hamm
sure

08:56.04
Betsy Hamm
right

09:00.45
Betsy Hamm
Well, and I think you mentioned this too, and I think maybe this was something the good that came out of COVID is like, we all have lives outside of work. I mean, it looks different whether it's, you know, you're married or you're not and have kids or you don't, but it was like, ah I think COVID at least made that door open a little bit that like, yes, oh, there's somebody in the background.

09:06.68
Linda Fedrizzi
That's right.

09:14.68
Linda Fedrizzi
Right?

09:16.53
Betsy Hamm
My kids are doing school from home or, you know, what it was.

09:17.90
Linda Fedrizzi
right Yeah.

09:19.90
Betsy Hamm
But I think sometimes being able to even acknowledge like, yes, we all have stuff and responsibilities outside of our professional lives and and being understanding of that, that that's

09:25.26
Linda Fedrizzi
Yes.

09:29.98
Betsy Hamm
That's how it is.

09:31.24
Linda Fedrizzi
That's right.

09:31.28
Betsy Hamm
um And do you think technology has made this better or worse? Because the fact that we can be on our phones, i have our email, like, I mean, it just sometimes that integration is like not ever focusing.

09:37.61
Linda Fedrizzi
Yeah.

09:40.66
Linda Fedrizzi
You know,

09:44.03
Linda Fedrizzi
That's a really good point, Betsy. And and you you have to walk a fine line because you don't want to not be present. So if you're going, if you're taking off of work at four o'clock to go to watch your child play in a sport, right, or to do anything, but when you're there, you're on your phone answering emails,

10:01.70
Linda Fedrizzi
it defeats the entire purpose.

10:03.49
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

10:03.75
Linda Fedrizzi
If you're going to take the time to be with your kid, take the time to be with your kid.

10:03.85
Betsy Hamm
Sure. Right.

10:07.38
Linda Fedrizzi
So I think what what technology has done, maybe in a negative way, is made us a little more scattered and less focused.

10:14.60
Betsy Hamm
sure

10:15.49
Linda Fedrizzi
If you're sitting at a dinner table with your family and you're texting your employees, you're not present.

10:20.23
Betsy Hamm
right

10:21.52
Linda Fedrizzi
And I almost think that's more detrimental than just saying, hey, guys, I have to answer this really quick. Give me a second.

10:27.29
Betsy Hamm
yeah

10:27.51
Linda Fedrizzi
leave the table, answer, and come back. So it's made it easier in that when your child is sick and you have to work from home, you can, but it also makes women feel like they can never totally shut off.

10:39.23
Linda Fedrizzi
And that's not healthy either.

10:39.36
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

10:40.27
Linda Fedrizzi
And you're not as effective.

10:41.64
Betsy Hamm
No.

10:41.84
Linda Fedrizzi
When you're sending emails from your phone and you have spelling errors and grammatical errors and you're voicing the text, it makes you look like you're you're not totally focused because you're not.

10:45.11
Betsy Hamm
Right.

10:50.53
Betsy Hamm
Not focused. Yeah. Because you're not. Yeah. And I think women pride themselves. I've i've done this where I'm like, I'm a great multitasker. No one's a great multitasker.

10:58.07
Linda Fedrizzi
No, they're not.

10:58.29
Betsy Hamm
Like you can't focus and and do, to your point, do what do a to a good job.

11:03.73
Linda Fedrizzi
Exactly. Exactly.

11:05.64
Betsy Hamm
We'll come out. So that kind of leads nicely into the next session about sacrifice, support, and the invisible load for women in leadership.

11:09.89
Linda Fedrizzi
you

11:13.25
Linda Fedrizzi
yeah I think probably the most not surprising, but sobering fact. of all the participants that I interviewed, every single woman, remember I interviewed college presidents, these were all college presidents who were mothers, every single one of them felt like they sacrificed some level of their personal life for their career.

11:32.77
Betsy Hamm
Hmm.

11:34.74
Linda Fedrizzi
and And for some of them, it ended in divorces. of ah Of all the divorced participants, it was due to job responsibilities or husbands not being supportive of the load that they had in their job, right? If you and your spouse aren't on the same page, it makes it really hard to have these kinds of roles. You have to be with a person who understands the responsibility that you have. So the sacrifice is real.

12:00.55
Linda Fedrizzi
and And the question is, how much are you sacrificing? And it's not unlike business. What is the return, right?

12:04.99
Betsy Hamm
Sure. Yep. Oh.

12:07.25
Linda Fedrizzi
um For me, when I was going through my my dissertation, my kids were two and four when I started.

12:12.39
Betsy Hamm
oh

12:12.85
Linda Fedrizzi
And I would feel, I mean, I would tear myself up about like the nights that I had to be at work to write papers. And I finally got to a place where I got super organized and just said, well, Friday nights, I'm staying at work and I'm gonna write as long as I have to. And I might miss Friday nights with my kids, but then all day Saturday and all day Sunday, I'm home with them, right? So you have to think about sacrifice in terms of what what's the payoff of this.

12:38.33
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

12:38.91
Linda Fedrizzi
But that and then and then the load, the workload. The other startling fact was that the higher up a woman went in her career, the more housework and family work she took on at home.

12:52.10
Betsy Hamm
Oh.

12:53.23
Linda Fedrizzi
And that surprises people. People often think if you're a stay home mom, you're doing more of the homework than your husband.

12:54.72
Betsy Hamm
So surprising.

13:00.17
Linda Fedrizzi
And that's not always the case.

13:02.31
Betsy Hamm
hu

13:02.49
Linda Fedrizzi
It's it's

13:02.85
Betsy Hamm
Back to the guilt.

13:04.27
Linda Fedrizzi
I think that's what it is. So because a woman is climbing up the ladder at work and she might have to be away or she might have late nights, she overcompensates by still trying to bake the cupcakes for the class or making sure that her husband is fed well and still keep those traditional roles.

13:22.33
Linda Fedrizzi
And they're paid less than men who have children in those jobs. And when men move up the ladder, they're actually paid more if they have children which is strange, and they spend more time at work than they do at home and their workload at home decreases the higher they go up the ladder.

13:40.54
Betsy Hamm
Man.

13:41.64
Linda Fedrizzi
So there there are, you know, maybe because men set boundaries,

13:41.83
Betsy Hamm
So. How does that happen? Why does that happen?

13:47.72
Betsy Hamm
Oh, that's fair.

13:48.06
Linda Fedrizzi
I think women women have a lot of self-imposed guilt and it's it's not that their spouse is saying, you're not home, you need to do more work when you get here. It's that women feel this need to nurture.

14:00.41
Linda Fedrizzi
And so when they when they're not at home, they feel like they have to do twice as much. it It is a true conflict and guilt and a lot of sacrifice.

14:08.12
Betsy Hamm
I can totally relate to that. ah When I was traveling a lot for work, I would try to be super organized and prepared. And I would like meal prep. I'd lay out their clothes because they were little.

14:16.29
Linda Fedrizzi
Oh, yeah.

14:16.93
Betsy Hamm
I would just be over the top and I'd be stressing so much to get all this.

14:18.18
Linda Fedrizzi
Yeah.

14:21.07
Betsy Hamm
sudden And my husband never asked me to do that. And eventually at one point he's like, could you just chill?

14:24.08
Linda Fedrizzi
Right.

14:25.22
Betsy Hamm
Like, what we got it. We'll figure Oh, you're gone.

14:27.39
Linda Fedrizzi
I know.

14:28.67
Betsy Hamm
And I was like, i't it's it was the guilt and it was not doing what I needed to do.

14:31.67
Linda Fedrizzi
It's the guilt.

14:32.99
Betsy Hamm
And plus I wanted to be easy because I didn't want him to be like, oh my God, it's so annoying. You're traveling again. So I tried to like eliminate any of those obstacles until he was like, what are you doing?

14:37.72
Linda Fedrizzi
I know.

14:42.72
Betsy Hamm
Chill.

14:43.62
Linda Fedrizzi
You are absolutely right, Betsy. That's very common. And I think any woman that has to travel or be out of town in their in their roles has done similar things.

14:46.14
Betsy Hamm
Yeah.

14:52.23
Linda Fedrizzi
Or i even did this I even did this last night.

14:52.44
Betsy Hamm
Yeah.

14:54.42
Linda Fedrizzi
I went out to dinner with friends, and which I never do. i do it like quarterly, which is also not healthy.

14:58.44
Betsy Hamm
Oh, right.

15:00.90
Linda Fedrizzi
I made sure they had meals to heat up. My kids at this point are 17 and 15, right?

15:03.36
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

15:06.25
Betsy Hamm
Right. They're self-sufficient.

15:07.38
Linda Fedrizzi
They have a job.

15:09.10
Betsy Hamm
Right.

15:09.40
Linda Fedrizzi
Like they don't

15:09.34
Betsy Hamm
Make mac and cheese.

15:10.98
Linda Fedrizzi
Yeah, they they can make it for a night and I'm still making sure, like I'm texting, are you guys good? Do you need anything? It's it's just, it's, ah yeah, it's tough.

15:20.03
Betsy Hamm
It's innate. So what do we do about that?

15:21.18
Linda Fedrizzi
It's a one.

15:21.66
Betsy Hamm
How do we do a better job of just taking it a step back? And to your point, boundaries, I love that word. That is so true.

15:27.27
Linda Fedrizzi
Foundries.

15:27.65
Betsy Hamm
That is a great word to say that we don't do as well, I think, as men typically.

15:31.86
Linda Fedrizzi
we We don't set boundaries and we don't ask for help. We're not good at asking for help. and that that doesn't just And that's with our teams too. like That's the other thing about women leaders is we tend to do way too much for our teams.

15:39.08
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

15:43.97
Linda Fedrizzi
You have to delegate more. You have to ask people to do more. You can't just step in and fix it when it's not working. And I think at home and the way these women became successful and what they did learn over time is they had to ask for help.

15:56.92
Linda Fedrizzi
They hadn't asked their kids to help out with chores.

15:56.90
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

15:59.42
Linda Fedrizzi
A lot of them outsourced some of the home responsibilities. They had a cleaner come in once or twice a month. They ordered groceries online to save time, right?

16:07.97
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

16:08.85
Linda Fedrizzi
For delivery, which I do.

16:10.33
Betsy Hamm
I do too.

16:10.57
Linda Fedrizzi
adopted that. And it is, it saves so much time. You don't always get what you want. So you have to be a little flexible, but it saves you time and energy, right?

16:15.16
Betsy Hamm
Right.

16:19.36
Linda Fedrizzi
So thinking about what can you ask other people to help you with? So you're not trying to do all of it on your own. And you do need that perspective. And the other thing is people aren't going to step up and help you on their own and not because they don't want to,

16:32.36
Betsy Hamm
Hmm.

16:33.85
Linda Fedrizzi
They think you can handle it. We do such a good job of showing that we are capable, that people don't realize we need help until we're burnt out and then we snap and we're crying and we're stressed.

16:47.06
Linda Fedrizzi
It shouldn't get to that point. when you're When you're feeling overwhelmed, before you're feeling overwhelmed, your family has to help you out. If you have siblings, but you're the one always caring for your parents, You have to say to your siblings, I need help with this.

16:59.77
Linda Fedrizzi
you The burden is not all on you. You don't have to do that to prove anything to anyone. So ask for help.

17:04.66
Betsy Hamm
Right. No, that's great. And I think too, especially when it comes to the house piece of it, what I learned is it's my expectations are higher than my husband's or my kids. So I like OCD, everything has to be away.

17:15.18
Linda Fedrizzi
Oh yeah.

17:16.33
Betsy Hamm
Like I don't like clutter.

17:16.99
Linda Fedrizzi
Yes.

17:17.79
Betsy Hamm
So sometimes I'd be mad that I'm like running around the house doing that. And then eventually, especially as the girls got older, it's like you pick up the stuff off the steps and ask someone to unload the dishwasher.

17:25.42
Linda Fedrizzi
That's right.

17:27.09
Betsy Hamm
Sometimes it's your husband and your kids. You have to tell them what to do.

17:31.16
Linda Fedrizzi
do You really do.

17:31.10
Betsy Hamm
Because it's not clear to them or and they don't care that there's dishes in the sink. So it's just being.

17:35.36
Linda Fedrizzi
that That's right. and Don't be resentful about it.

17:38.58
Betsy Hamm
Yes, I totally would do that.

17:38.71
Linda Fedrizzi
Just ask them to do it and then be appreciative even if it's not to your standards. You got to let some of that go too.

17:44.12
Betsy Hamm
That's a great point.

17:45.48
Linda Fedrizzi
i know.

17:45.55
Betsy Hamm
That's that's very fair. It's not always too

17:47.23
Linda Fedrizzi
It's hard.

17:48.39
Betsy Hamm
This is like literally my life.

17:48.60
Linda Fedrizzi
It's hard. It's hard.

17:51.61
Betsy Hamm
But I agree. Outsourcing is huge and and asking for help, I think, are the two big things. and And especially I think when the girls were young, it's having that reliable child care. You know, i think sometimes you try to piecemeal child care together and rely on family, which is great.

18:00.76
Linda Fedrizzi
Oh, yeah.

18:04.36
Betsy Hamm
But, you know, sometimes you're like, look, I got to got to bite the bullet. I got to find consistent daycare or whatever it is. And that's hard because, again, it goes back to where you feel like you're making a sacrifice. But um you need that reliability and consistency in your life, especially when your kids are young.

18:17.47
Linda Fedrizzi
You do, and that's a good point. So the other thing in all of this research is for women with younger kids, it's absolutely the hardest. And when you do have to put your kids in daycare.

18:25.40
Betsy Hamm
Right. Yep.

18:27.49
Linda Fedrizzi
And I remember I used to feel, i don't know if resentful is the right word because I loved working, right? But I would i would go to the drop-off line at school when my kids were little.

18:33.25
Betsy Hamm
right

18:37.05
Linda Fedrizzi
And there'd be moms in their workout outfits and they were stay-home moms and they were going to go get to work out for two hours. And here I am, like I've already put two hours in and it's only 7 a.m. m And now I'm getting ready to go work all day at work and I'm leaving my kids in before care and after care and feeling like a monster because I'm doing that all to find out like my kids loved that time.

18:53.02
Betsy Hamm
ye

18:58.91
Betsy Hamm
Right.

18:59.54
Linda Fedrizzi
They made friends.

18:59.55
Betsy Hamm
Exactly.

19:00.38
Linda Fedrizzi
They were playing kickball.

19:00.90
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

19:01.86
Linda Fedrizzi
They were doing crafts. Like they were okay. Your kids will be okay.

19:04.88
Betsy Hamm
Absolutely. It was you.

19:06.25
Linda Fedrizzi
They're resilient.

19:07.32
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

19:08.10
Linda Fedrizzi
Yeah.

19:08.12
Betsy Hamm
Totally been there. I get that as well. Well, that leads nicely into the nest next piece of mother load as the leader.

19:10.19
Linda Fedrizzi
It's

19:14.40
Betsy Hamm
Oh my gosh. What at that part?

19:16.03
Linda Fedrizzi
hard. Yeah.

19:17.12
Betsy Hamm
Well, that leads nicely into the next um piece, which motherhood as leadership training, which is something I haven't really thought about. So talk to us about that.

19:25.89
Linda Fedrizzi
A lot of people think that the two roles are totally separate, and that's that's not the case. So every woman that I interviewed found that being a mom actually prepared them better to be college presidents.

19:37.74
Linda Fedrizzi
And when you think about some of the skills and even just leadership roles in general.

19:37.81
Betsy Hamm
True.

19:42.29
Linda Fedrizzi
So the the two biggest things that people felt like motherhood trained them for was number one, time management. Women are just better at time management.

19:51.53
Betsy Hamm
true

19:51.64
Linda Fedrizzi
You have to be, right? So time management and organizational skills, they they kind of go hand in hand, but getting very organized with your time, being structured, knowing when you have to do something, when you have to be somewhere else, you have to have good organizational skills, especially as your kids get older and then they're into sports and activities and you're managing a calendar, right?

20:12.59
Linda Fedrizzi
So you're almost a project manager with a Gantt chart

20:14.58
Betsy Hamm
Right.

20:15.58
Linda Fedrizzi
that outlines your whole family life. That's all transferable to to your jobs. um We're also really good at juggling different roles. You have to be able to be you know a disciplinary one minute and then be a friend the next minute and be able to deal with all of the emotions.

20:33.20
Linda Fedrizzi
um Mothers have increased patience and understanding. They're often better supervisors than any other sector um because you have to have skills where you can listen and be patient and be kind.

20:45.72
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

20:48.37
Linda Fedrizzi
um a lot of the moms found that being a mom helped them with their anxiety because they they would feel so anxious all the time, but then realizing you know having kids kind of puts everything in perspective.

20:53.80
Betsy Hamm
Oh.

21:03.05
Linda Fedrizzi
you You start understanding what's important and what's not important.

21:03.00
Betsy Hamm
True.

21:06.76
Linda Fedrizzi
And so little things that might have gotten you upset don't really bother you anymore. So you have a way to control your anxiety.

21:12.66
Betsy Hamm
Interesting.

21:14.21
Linda Fedrizzi
And then the other big thing is women in general are more transformational leaders than men.

21:19.71
Betsy Hamm
Interesting.

21:20.66
Linda Fedrizzi
They just are. it's ah They're transformational leaders. And when you put in being a mom on top of it, your emotional intelligence skills are heightened. You are able to be more attuned into people.

21:34.20
Linda Fedrizzi
You can read people that you're communicating with better. you have more compassion, more empathy, and those are all skills that help you. And before they might have been looked at like a weakness.

21:45.56
Betsy Hamm
interesting

21:45.73
Linda Fedrizzi
um A lot of times people think that women are emotional. Emotional intelligence is not the same thing as being an emotional person. It just means that you're able to read a room and you're able to correspond and communicate with people in a way that's more effective instead of just treating everyone the same or being kind of cold about it. So,

22:05.35
Linda Fedrizzi
Those are all things that that make you a better leader.

22:08.47
Betsy Hamm
Well, that makes sense, too, especially when you think about culture. There's a lot of talk about, you know, how you're building the culture in your organization and and being intentional about it. And to me, a lot of that goes to what you just mentioned with an understanding how you treat people.

22:19.79
Linda Fedrizzi
Right.

22:21.60
Betsy Hamm
Everyone's different and, you know, understanding emotions. So to me, that would help women build better cultures in their organizations as well.

22:28.48
Linda Fedrizzi
Definitely. Oh, and negotiating. That's the last one I'll say.

22:31.06
Betsy Hamm
Oh,

22:32.63
Linda Fedrizzi
Yeah, being a mother gives you really good negotiating skills because you are constantly negotiating with your children, right?

22:40.50
Betsy Hamm
That is so true. Yeah.

22:42.31
Linda Fedrizzi
So thinking about how you can transfer that skill into any kind of business situation where negotiation is part of it.

22:50.40
Betsy Hamm
Yeah. And how about picking your battles? That's something I think, I don't know if i learned that at work or a mom, but picking your battles.

22:52.83
Linda Fedrizzi
Oh, picking battles. Oh, that's such a good one. That's such a good one. We say that at work all the time. We even say that when the board's there. Gotta pick my battles.

23:01.92
Betsy Hamm
Right.

23:02.33
Linda Fedrizzi
This one is not worth fighting over.

23:02.42
Betsy Hamm
Yeah. It's not worth your time. Yeah.

23:04.88
Linda Fedrizzi
yeah Yeah, so true. So true.

23:06.41
Betsy Hamm
That's so funny. So those are all so great. So how do we redefine leadership for women, especially women who are in leadership roles or maybe they have a small business having other employees? Like how do we do better in these situations and support our employees?

23:21.82
Linda Fedrizzi
I think, you know, you really have to support women and people say that all the time and and yet they don't do it. And that's that's not just women with children.

23:28.57
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

23:30.66
Linda Fedrizzi
That's women in general, because the other thing I found was that none of the participants I interviewed felt like being a mother held them back from leadership positions. What they felt like was that being a woman often was the differentiator for them.

23:45.02
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

23:45.76
Linda Fedrizzi
in getting into leadership positions because they were very, and remember this is 10 years ago, and these were women that had been in their roles for a little while. They were often the only woman in a room with a lot of men.

23:56.47
Linda Fedrizzi
And so how do women feel more confident about themselves? I think the biggest thing that women struggle with is imposter syndrome. It's talked about all the time. But we do have a tendency to not want to move forward or to take on a leadership role until we are 100% certain that we're ready.

24:15.44
Linda Fedrizzi
And even then, we don't feel like we're really ready to be in that role. And so for a lot of women that get to leadership positions, they do feel like they're an imposter.

24:26.34
Linda Fedrizzi
They feel fake, like, I can't believe I'm in this role. I'm not sure that I know what I'm doing.

24:31.71
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

24:32.15
Linda Fedrizzi
And I think what what we have to share with women is every single person feels that.

24:37.28
Betsy Hamm
Right.

24:37.67
Linda Fedrizzi
No matter how confident, no one is perfect and you're not going to know.

24:37.73
Betsy Hamm
Right. No one's perfect.

24:42.09
Betsy Hamm
Right.

24:42.51
Linda Fedrizzi
And so you don't have to pretend to know everything. You don't have to come in colder or trying to be more assertive because you're a woman or you're a mother. You need to be genuine. People see through phoniness.

24:55.89
Linda Fedrizzi
right You need to take a genuine interest and curiosity into people. If you are a woman in a leadership position, you need to make it easier for the women under you. I think that's another thing where you know those of us that have kind of come through and have had some nightmare experiences tend to be tougher.

25:05.31
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

25:13.03
Linda Fedrizzi
Like I made it and you need to experience this. That's not true. right So what can you do different? I almost never schedule 7.30 or 8 seven thirty or eight a m meetings. And I'm a morning person. I would prefer that.

25:25.76
Linda Fedrizzi
But I know how hard it was to get my kids to before-care school you know or to on the school bus.

25:30.78
Betsy Hamm
sure

25:32.33
Linda Fedrizzi
If you have kids in elementary, their buses are coming at 9 o'clock.

25:35.65
Betsy Hamm
Right. right

25:36.65
Linda Fedrizzi
So even if she's bringing her children to daycare, you know if you have your meetings start at 9, just be conscious of it.

25:36.89
Betsy Hamm
So annoying.

25:45.10
Linda Fedrizzi
Don't schedule meetings for 4 o'clock in the evening. If you want women to be on boards, the board meetings can't start at 6 o'clock. because they're not going to ever pick their job over their children.

25:56.98
Betsy Hamm
Right.

25:57.12
Linda Fedrizzi
And when you're looking at career theories, there was um there was a theorist, his name was Super, it's called the lifespan approach. And the lifespan approach you always have one dominant role in your life, no matter how many roles you have, and women have multiple, there's one dominant role.

26:08.26
Betsy Hamm
Makes sense.

26:12.62
Linda Fedrizzi
If you have children, almost always your dominant role is going to be motherhood. It just is, it supersedes everything. So when you're having... multiple events in the evenings, your moms aren't going to be able to be there.

26:25.54
Linda Fedrizzi
Or if they are, it's only going to be for a certain period of time. So it's hard to move up a ladder when everything is on these hours that conflict with their childcare.

26:35.59
Betsy Hamm
make sense

26:35.94
Linda Fedrizzi
Right? so So not to say you can't have evening events, but then it's like you're giving a few months notice so they can make arrangements.

26:41.84
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

26:43.23
Linda Fedrizzi
Or you're asking them and not in a way where you're asking them in front of a group of other people, right? You might want to ask them one-on-one. Like, I'm thinking about this event at 6 p.m. on a Wednesday and two months from now, do you think you'll be able to make it?

26:56.60
Linda Fedrizzi
That way she can make arrangements. Okay. So I think we have to find a way to incorporate more women into these positions because women often are better leaders. I know our men are not going to like to hear that.

27:07.49
Linda Fedrizzi
And I've had a lot of male bosses that I've actually loved and admired because they pushed us.

27:12.47
Betsy Hamm
Ooh.

27:12.57
Linda Fedrizzi
They pushed me. And the one thing I will share is that in all of the women in my study, none of them, not a single one would have ever aspired to be a college president if someone didn't tell her that she had the ability to do it.

27:27.09
Linda Fedrizzi
Every one of them was encouraged by someone.

27:27.10
Betsy Hamm
oo

27:29.62
Linda Fedrizzi
And when I thought about that, I thought about my own mentors who said the same thing to me because I had never thought about it either. So what we can do for women leaders is nominate them for awards.

27:41.96
Linda Fedrizzi
Encourage them to apply for a job um that's a leadership position. Help them with their CVs or their resumes and and get them to a place where they believe that they can do it because self-efficacy is the number one determinant in whether or not a woman is successful.

27:59.49
Betsy Hamm
Oh my gosh, I love that. And encourage is such an important word, right? Like I think it's something we can all do better.

28:04.74
Linda Fedrizzi
Oh, wow.

28:04.96
Betsy Hamm
And you yet to be intentional.

28:05.20
Linda Fedrizzi
Thank you.

28:05.96
Betsy Hamm
You know, sometimes you do have to think about it. You could think really highly of somebody, but do they know that you think highly of them? And are you saying it to other people who, you know, maybe you could help that person get promoted?

28:12.09
Linda Fedrizzi
Right.

28:15.52
Betsy Hamm
So it's just that visibility and exposure that's so important to get ahead.

28:16.52
Linda Fedrizzi
i

28:20.25
Linda Fedrizzi
Absolutely.

28:21.91
Betsy Hamm
So advice for moms and ah who are aspiring for that leadership role, what did you find that you think are those sort of key takeaways to continue to grow in any and any organization?

28:32.12
Linda Fedrizzi
I think a few things. One, find find your circle of support system. I think we tend to think we have to do it on our own, otherwise it's not real. So your support system can't only be from your significant other.

28:45.78
Linda Fedrizzi
Your significant other is a great source of support, but they're also the love of your life, right? So you you don't always want to be burdening them about everything under the sun that's bothering you.

28:57.02
Linda Fedrizzi
You can find support systems in your colleagues, in women's community networks, find a group of women in the community that you can talk to. A lot of women that have boards, your board of directors can be a great source of support.

29:11.38
Linda Fedrizzi
I have to say, and I'm not just saying this because you're a board member, Betsy, I think I have the greatest board of directors. I have the most supportive group of people that I know I could pick up the phone and call any one of them and say, I need help with this.

29:17.25
Betsy Hamm
You really do. So supportive.

29:24.41
Linda Fedrizzi
And ask for help. If you get nothing out of this, ask for help before you crash out, as my kids would say.

29:25.98
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

29:31.19
Linda Fedrizzi
You know, everyone has that moment where you've hit, you've you've just, you've gotten to the top and you can't take another thing and you're crashing out. Before you get there, ask for help with your house, ask for help with the groceries.

29:42.83
Linda Fedrizzi
At work, ask for help if you don't understand how to do something, because that's that's not a sign of weakness. It shows that you know your limitations and that you're setting yourself up for success, not failure.

29:54.31
Betsy Hamm
That's so true. I love that. That's a huge takeaway. So Linda, thank you for sharing your findings with us.

30:00.09
Linda Fedrizzi
Oh, you're welcome.

30:00.32
Betsy Hamm
This is amazing. And like I said, this is literally reiterating everything we've talked about in the first 10, 12 episodes of Loud and Lifted. So thank you so much for that. So people want to connect with you or find out more about Central Penn College, where can we do that?

30:13.52
Linda Fedrizzi
So centralpen.edu is where you're going to find anything Central Pen. You can find me on LinkedIn or Facebook, Linda Fedrezzi Williams. um And for email, lindafedrezzi at centralpen.edu.

30:24.69
Betsy Hamm
Awesome. Thank you so much for being here.

30:26.62
Linda Fedrizzi
Oh, you're welcome. Thanks for having me.