Glass Walls: The Hidden Barriers Holding Women Back at Work

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We've all heard of the glass ceiling, that invisible

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barrier at the top, but my guest today, Dr. Amy

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Deal, argues the bigger issue is actually glass

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walls, the barriers that block women sideways,

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out of key rooms, roles, relationships, and opportunities

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long before we even get to the top. Amy's a researcher

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and the author of the book Glass Walls, and she

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breaks workplace gender bias into six core barriers.

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And the part I loved is this isn't just theory,

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it's research -backed. full of real examples,

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and comes with practical solutions. What leaders

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need to fix, what allies can do in real time,

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and what we can do as women so we don't internalize

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a system that was never even designed for us.

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Today's conversation is one I really want every

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woman in leadership to hear. Because if you've

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ever felt like you're doing everything right,

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but still hitting invisible resistance, this

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episode is for you. Welcome to Loud and Lifted.

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Amy, thank you so much for being here. Thank

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you for having me. Yes. I'm very excited about

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this conversation because I think we've all heard

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of glass ceilings, but you argue the bigger issue

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is glass walls, barriers of black women sideways,

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key roots, roles, and relationships. So before

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we dig into the definition and what exactly a

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glass wall is, let's talk about you and how did

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you get here? How did you get to this point where

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you'd written a book on glass walls? Yeah, so

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I have a background in information technology.

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When I went to college, I studied computer science

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and was very male -dominated, as it still is,

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unfortunately. I was one of only one or two women

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in my classes. So there would be like 20 to 30

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people in the class, 28 men, one or two women.

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But I did well. I got all A's in college and

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I really didn't know anything about Gender barriers.

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I didn't think I thought the world I thought

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that was all behind us You know the women were

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equal and as long as I was willing to do the

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work I would get the same rewards as my male

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counterparts, right? And I found that that was

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largely true in college, right? So then I go

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into the world of work and I was very fortunate

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when I stepped into my first role in the workplace

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And that was that I had I had an internship when

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I was in college and then later that turned into

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a full -time job and there's two different managers

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but the managers of the department it was a software

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development department they were both women and

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so I was very fortunate in that I was able to

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see myself like they like I wanted to be like

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them you know because here they were like they

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were an information technology leader I thought

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I see them doing it. I'm sure I can do it too,

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right? That was sort of another signal to me

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that, hey, you know, there are no barriers, you

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know, that the world's equal place. Then I go

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into my next role after that position where I

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had to have more of a male leadership, at least

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within the IT field. And again, more men than

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women in my department. And that's when I started

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to notice like... different things, strange things

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happening. It was also whenever I started to

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work my way up through the hierarchy. When I

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was at that first role, I was in like the entry

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level position. So, you know, one thing that

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we found through this research is that the higher

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that you move up, the stronger the barriers become.

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So sometimes you may not notice them when you're

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at the entry level. Right. Or notice them as

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strongly. But regardless, when I started working

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then, in my second role and started moving up

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in leadership. That's whenever I really started

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to have these strange things that were happening

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to me that were not happening to my male counterparts.

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And so what I was doing was I was wanting to

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learn how to lead. And so to do that, I watched

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the men who are around me. I watched my colleagues

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and I tried to emulate them. For example, I tried

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to be authoritative with my leadership. Like

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if a decision needed to be made. Okay, I'll make

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it. But what I found was that my male counterparts

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could make the decision and they would get no

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pushback. I would get pushback and I would lose

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points, lose respect from the male subordinates

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or from my colleagues. And I thought, well, I

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must be doing something wrong. There are a few

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other things that happened. One of the things

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was that I was actually actively discouraged

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from joining the women's group at my workplace.

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At the time, I didn't think anything of it. Again,

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it's kind of coming in from that mindset of,

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the world's an equal place. We don't need that

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anymore. I think back on that. I did later join

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their group, but in the beginning about how much

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more support I could have gotten if I had...

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joined them earlier and understanding of what

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was happening. But also another strange thing

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was that I found that oftentimes it was women,

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certain women, not all women, not most women,

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but there were certain women in the organization

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that were just not kind to me, just weren't nice.

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And at the time I was doing computer troubleshooting.

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And so I'm like, I'm just here to help you with

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your computer. I don't know why am I sensing

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the classility or something. And again, it was

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only a handful of women, but it was just so unexpected

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because, you know, you just come into a situation

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like that thinking we're women, we're, you know,

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like, we're here, we should be supporting each

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other. And that wasn't happening. So I took that

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all personally. I thought, like, I was doing

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something wrong. I must be leading wrong. I must

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be, you know, my inner personal interactions

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must be something wrong. It was it was several

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years later when I started a PhD program that

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I guess I started at some point I started to

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pick up on the idea that maybe it wasn't just

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me like and I started to also pick up on there

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are like women are experiencing barriers and

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I wanted to really dig into that and and Figure

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out what barriers were women experiencing that

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men often weren't So I started a PhD program.

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Throughout that program, I took the time to research,

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do as much literature review on barriers that

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were affecting women as I could. I did a dissertation

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where I interviewed 26 women leaders in higher

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education about their experiences with adversity

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and with professional barriers. And the whole

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PhD program dissertation research was just eye

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-opening. But from that, I went to a conference

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where I met my now co -author Dr. Leanne Dubinsky

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and we started talking and we realized that we

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had a very similar dissertation research on different

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populations of women. I had looked at women and

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their challenges in higher education. She had

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looked at women in faith -based nonprofits. And

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so it was both, it was qualitative research where

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we had done interviews. So we were able to put

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our research sets, our data sets together and

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like look at them holistically and pull out all

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of the barriers, all of the distinct barriers

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that we found women experiencing. And we also

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realized there was more similarities to what

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they were experiencing than there were differences,

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which really led us to the conclusion that it

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wasn't so much the type of an organization or

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the industry that a woman worked in, it more

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had to do with women in leadership or women in

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fields that were not originally women's fields

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or where women were, you know, underrepresented.

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certain fields, that we were able to scientifically

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derive the six core barriers. One of the six

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core factors of this nebulous concept, this concept

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we think of as nebulous, being gender bias. And

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so we pulled those out. And the book Glass Walls

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comes from that research. So it's a scientifically

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research -driven book where we talk about workplace

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gender bias, what makes up workplace gender bias,

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and we give lots of examples from everyday women,

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from women who are more prominent, as well as

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giving solutions. And we have solutions for women

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or not. just for women, solutions for everyone.

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So solutions for anyone who's a leader, solutions

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for anybody who's an ally in the workplace, and

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then solutions for the women themselves. Great.

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And it's funny, as you're saying that, oh, you're

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talking about higher ed, you were surprised to

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find somebody in a nonprofit having the same

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experience. And I'm sitting here shaking my head

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from a corporate standpoint that... Yes. I mean,

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the higher I went up, the more challenging it

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became and had the same things in a corporate

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environment. So I agree. It doesn't matter your

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industry. We're all facing these same challenges.

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It just might show up a little different. So

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let's talk about the glass wall. We hear about

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glass ceilings and we kind of think we know that

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definition. What's your definition of the walls

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and how is it different than the ceiling? Yeah,

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well, the ceiling is a concept that has been

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around for a long time. And I think it's a very,

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very real concept. And the idea of the glass

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ceiling is that there's a certain level that

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women can rise to and they have to break through

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it in any industry or any given maybe organization.

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And if you think about the highest glass ceiling

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in the United States, it would be the US presidency.

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And that's one that's still there. We've seen

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women. We've had now two women candidates for

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president, neither of whom were successful. So

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that one is still, unfortunately, firmly intact.

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So we think about that concept as as you move

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up, it's higher and higher. You're going to break

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through the ceiling. Well, when we did the research,

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what we realized was it's more than a glass ceiling.

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Really, these barriers are walls. They're invisible.

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Barriers that are all that they surround us and

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no matter which way a woman turns she's running

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into something that you can't see She doesn't

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know until she runs into it. That's something

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you know that there's a barrier there, but it's

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it's there and so we conceptualize the six core

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factors six core barriers of Gender bias as glass

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walls. It's just a very powerful metaphor for

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what women women are experiencing. It's more

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holistic than than the It's inclusive, it's additive

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to the glass ceiling metaphor, yeah. Yeah, and

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when you just said that, I'm visualizing that,

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when you can't see, you turn around to the corner,

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you're running into a barrier you didn't even

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know was there, and that's such a great visual,

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and a fortunate visual, but a great visual that

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you're like, oh, okay, I see why that's different.

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So let's dig into those six walls. What are they?

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The first one is male privilege. We conceptualize

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male privilege as it's really the bedrock from

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which all of the other barriers flow. It's this

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idea that workplaces were developed by men for

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men. In fact, institutions were developed by

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men for men with men's needs in mind without

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really considering what women may need if they

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were in the same roles in those institutions.

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And unfortunately, we have so many remnants of

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that type of environment today within our within

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our culture, within our workplace cultures. One

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example is the example is the boys with the Boys

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Club, where, you know, you're in an organization

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and the conversations are revolving around topics

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that typically interest men like sports or cars

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or drinking or the social activities, you know,

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are typical or things that are, again, more typically

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male oriented. or even social activities being

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after hours when it can be hard for somebody

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who has like caretaking responsibilities to attend

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and maybe if they even want to attend right if

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it's even something that like golf is maybe one

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of the the examples there's nothing wrong with

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golf I have nothing you know no issue with the

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sport in of itself but When the men are making

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connections and making decisions out on the golf

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course without including women, that becomes

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a problem. Oh, absolutely. Season one, we had

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the founder of She Said Golf who loves golf.

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But part of the thing was from a business perspective,

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you know, there's conversations, there's relations

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being built and women aren't there. So her goal

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was to get. women more comfortable on a golf

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course, which ties into that perfectly. Another

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example of male privilege is masculine language

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in the workplace. If you think about the word,

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I wrote an article for Fast Company on the use

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of the word guys. I grew up in Pennsylvania and

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in my area of Pennsylvania, the plural for you

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is you guys. I still have that habit today, which

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I his lesson, but I try to break, of saying you

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guys, when it's a group of, even when it's a

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group of all women or mixed gender group. So

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I wrote an article for Fast Company about how

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guys really isn't gender neutral. And that even

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if you intended, you as a speaker intended to

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be gender neutral, the person on the, the person

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who's, you know, in the member of the group may

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not receive it, receive it that way. But there's,

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you know, there's other types of like words,

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like if you think about some of the words that

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we use, like man hours, right? I mean, we can

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change those words. It can be staff hours, right?

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There's often easy words. And, you know, some

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of the some norms are changing, like Like it

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used to always be congressman or councilman,

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councilman. And you see some of those things

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changing to more gender neutral alternatives.

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But that's like one of the very subtle ways,

00:13:21.590 --> 00:13:26.090
you know, that it's male, the men, the men in

00:13:26.090 --> 00:13:27.970
the organization are privileged, you know, and

00:13:27.970 --> 00:13:30.230
the women are kind of made invisible. That's

00:13:30.230 --> 00:13:32.789
so true. And it becomes so used that you don't

00:13:32.789 --> 00:13:34.919
even realize it. Most people aren't. doing it

00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:36.960
to be malicious or to exclude anyone. That's

00:13:36.960 --> 00:13:39.759
how it's been, we've been raised, right? That's

00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:41.919
like the normal form of communication, but that

00:13:41.919 --> 00:13:44.779
goes back to the bias piece of it. Yep, exactly.

00:13:45.080 --> 00:13:47.600
So go on to number two is disproportionate constraints.

00:13:48.220 --> 00:13:50.379
So what women often find in organizations is

00:13:50.379 --> 00:13:53.720
they're allowed in for sure, but they're choices

00:13:53.720 --> 00:13:56.320
in their behaviors are constrained in comparison

00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:59.559
to the men, to the men in the organization. So

00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:01.580
one way that happens is that women's voices are

00:14:01.580 --> 00:14:04.639
often muted, like literally muted. And that can

00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:06.720
occur by just being interrupted and over talked

00:14:06.720 --> 00:14:10.259
in meetings. It can occur by, there's a term,

00:14:10.259 --> 00:14:11.940
we didn't coin this term, but there's a term

00:14:11.940 --> 00:14:13.820
that we highlight in the book called heap heating.

00:14:14.679 --> 00:14:17.559
And heap heating is when a man says something,

00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:20.019
excuse me, when a woman says something in a meeting

00:14:20.019 --> 00:14:22.299
and it's ignored. And then a man says the same

00:14:22.299 --> 00:14:25.889
thing. everyone loves it, right? Oh, yeah. Okay.

00:14:26.049 --> 00:14:27.690
Like, I never heard that word, but definitely

00:14:27.690 --> 00:14:29.570
heard that kind of stuff. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure

00:14:29.570 --> 00:14:32.830
you've seen that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So that's another

00:14:32.830 --> 00:14:34.789
way that women's voices and their contributions

00:14:34.789 --> 00:14:38.309
are muted, even if unintentionally, right? And

00:14:38.309 --> 00:14:40.809
then sometimes it is more intentional, you know,

00:14:40.850 --> 00:14:42.830
where their ideas are just taken. We call it

00:14:42.830 --> 00:14:45.250
appropriating. If somebody actively takes their

00:14:45.250 --> 00:14:48.909
idea and, you know, if a man takes the woman's

00:14:48.909 --> 00:14:51.230
idea and actively claims, you know, credit for

00:14:51.230 --> 00:14:54.399
it. Do you think some of that ties into, because

00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:56.639
we talked about this in other episodes, like

00:14:56.639 --> 00:14:58.820
the delivery and the confidence. Like if you're

00:14:58.820 --> 00:15:01.379
not sitting in a meeting, very confident, very,

00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:04.519
not even outspoken, but just, you know, presence

00:15:04.519 --> 00:15:07.240
and delivery of your message is very confident.

00:15:08.139 --> 00:15:09.559
And sometimes women struggle with that. So is

00:15:09.559 --> 00:15:12.299
that part of that is just our delivery of messages?

00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:15.159
Well, I would say yes, yes and no. Certainly

00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:17.299
confidence is good for everyone to have, like,

00:15:17.379 --> 00:15:20.980
you know, everyone to have, but, or just... display,

00:15:20.980 --> 00:15:24.899
I guess. But the problem becomes for women, there's

00:15:24.899 --> 00:15:29.240
a fine line between if a woman comes across as

00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:31.440
too confident or overconfident, she's going to

00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.460
get backlash. So that's why you often see women

00:15:34.460 --> 00:15:38.299
in settings where they'll use tentative language.

00:15:38.960 --> 00:15:41.080
This is what I think this or I believe this,

00:15:41.240 --> 00:15:42.620
where maybe the man next to her is just saying,

00:15:42.679 --> 00:15:47.360
this is it as a fact. She knows that she may

00:15:47.360 --> 00:15:52.500
get pushback if she doesn't frame her words more

00:15:52.500 --> 00:15:56.779
tentatively. I think the solution to that is

00:15:56.779 --> 00:16:00.899
that everybody should be using tentative language

00:16:00.899 --> 00:16:02.740
when it makes sense and using the more confident

00:16:02.740 --> 00:16:06.019
language when it makes sense. For the man who

00:16:06.019 --> 00:16:08.360
gets away with speaking in an overconfident way,

00:16:08.659 --> 00:16:10.059
it'd be nice if he would say, well, I think this

00:16:10.059 --> 00:16:12.909
is what it is when he's not sure. because there's

00:16:12.909 --> 00:16:15.169
nothing wrong with either communication style

00:16:15.169 --> 00:16:18.690
is just the fact that tend to think well this

00:16:18.690 --> 00:16:20.610
man is speaking confidently so it must be correct

00:16:20.610 --> 00:16:22.950
and we just make that assumption right yeah absolutely

00:16:22.950 --> 00:16:27.549
yeah that's interesting yeah yeah also in disproportionate

00:16:27.549 --> 00:16:29.549
constraints another type of constraint is scrutiny

00:16:29.549 --> 00:16:32.909
um where women's behavior their performance and

00:16:32.909 --> 00:16:35.470
their dress and their appearance are scrutinized

00:16:35.470 --> 00:16:38.889
in ways above and beyond that of that of men

00:16:38.889 --> 00:16:42.389
right we see that and you know um certainly in

00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:44.639
women who are in the public eye. But thinking

00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:47.299
about the presidential candidates, one anecdote

00:16:47.299 --> 00:16:51.240
I have is when former Vice President Kamala Harris

00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:53.940
was running for president, the New York Times

00:16:53.940 --> 00:16:58.940
had an article about her dress. And in the article,

00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:01.000
it had four pictures of her side by side, and

00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:03.539
she was in pantsuits. So she was like literally

00:17:03.539 --> 00:17:06.500
wearing the female alternative of the male suit,

00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:11.309
right? Yeah. And the sub headlines was, but Does

00:17:11.309 --> 00:17:14.069
she look presidential? Oh, my God. You know,

00:17:14.190 --> 00:17:18.869
and like she's literally wearing the female alternative

00:17:18.869 --> 00:17:21.789
to the male suit. And that's the that's the question

00:17:21.789 --> 00:17:24.309
that the article posed. Right. You know, just

00:17:24.309 --> 00:17:25.970
that's an example, of course, somebody who is

00:17:25.970 --> 00:17:28.549
very, very visible. But this kind of thing happens

00:17:28.549 --> 00:17:32.150
to women even in less visible positions as soon

00:17:32.150 --> 00:17:35.289
as you know. And it can be used as an excuse.

00:17:35.589 --> 00:17:38.569
you know to not take the woman seriously or to

00:17:38.569 --> 00:17:41.230
you know dismiss her ideas or you know to not

00:17:41.230 --> 00:17:43.769
you know give her that promotion well you know

00:17:43.769 --> 00:17:47.789
whatever nitpicky thing um i recall i when i

00:17:47.789 --> 00:17:50.730
was doing my dissertation research i was interviewing

00:17:50.730 --> 00:17:52.670
a person who was a provost the woman who was

00:17:52.670 --> 00:17:54.910
a provost at the time and she gave me the story

00:17:54.910 --> 00:17:56.930
she said i served on the search committee one

00:17:56.930 --> 00:18:00.170
time and we had a candidate who had wonderful

00:18:00.170 --> 00:18:03.119
credentials and she interviewed very well But

00:18:03.119 --> 00:18:04.980
there was a person on the search committee and

00:18:04.980 --> 00:18:07.240
it was another woman who said, but she wasn't

00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:11.569
wearing pantyhose. And so this woman that I was

00:18:11.569 --> 00:18:13.250
interviewing was like I wasn't even looking at

00:18:13.250 --> 00:18:15.470
her leg She's like I was listening to her ideas,

00:18:15.509 --> 00:18:17.109
but she said I was just so appalled You know

00:18:17.109 --> 00:18:18.769
that somebody was calling out the fact that she

00:18:18.769 --> 00:18:21.230
wasn't wearing pantyhose and that oh my gosh

00:18:21.230 --> 00:18:23.049
The hard part about that is when you bring something

00:18:23.049 --> 00:18:25.630
like that in a committee setting It can like

00:18:25.630 --> 00:18:27.589
derail the whole like, you know, you put it like

00:18:27.589 --> 00:18:30.930
kind of a negative idea and you know an unfair

00:18:30.930 --> 00:18:33.529
negative idea but still put that in somebody's

00:18:33.529 --> 00:18:35.089
mind and that can be a reason to dismiss them

00:18:35.089 --> 00:18:38.400
from or remove them from consideration for the

00:18:38.400 --> 00:18:40.559
world. That's crazy. Yeah. And there's such a

00:18:40.559 --> 00:18:43.200
scale, right? Like you hear people make comments

00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:46.079
if you're not attractive and maybe you're overweight

00:18:46.079 --> 00:18:48.019
and you just, you don't look the part, right?

00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:50.119
You don't have the executive presence. That's

00:18:50.119 --> 00:18:51.720
their, you know, excuse. She doesn't have the

00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:53.440
executive presence for that. But then on the

00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:55.359
other hand, if someone's too attractive, it's

00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:59.000
like, oh, she thinks she's pretty, her shirt's

00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:01.319
low cut or she wears whatever it is. Like, it's

00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:05.059
like, you can't be too pretty, right? It's like

00:19:05.059 --> 00:19:07.299
you have to find this middle ground that's, quote,

00:19:07.779 --> 00:19:10.740
appropriate for men and women. It's not just

00:19:10.740 --> 00:19:13.019
a man thing. To your point, I think women are

00:19:13.019 --> 00:19:15.599
quick to be super judgy of how somebody looks

00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:19.220
physically, which is crazy. So yeah, that's a

00:19:19.220 --> 00:19:20.960
big one for sure. Yeah, absolutely. We wrote

00:19:20.960 --> 00:19:24.359
an article also. It is in Fast Company about

00:19:24.359 --> 00:19:27.369
lookism. Bias it gets to this exact point and

00:19:27.369 --> 00:19:30.250
the point we make in the article is that Like

00:19:30.250 --> 00:19:32.950
for like look ism as a concept has been defined

00:19:32.950 --> 00:19:35.990
as a beauty bias So the idea being that attractive

00:19:35.990 --> 00:19:38.089
people get benefits and unattractive people don't

00:19:38.089 --> 00:19:39.910
and there's certainly something to be said for

00:19:39.910 --> 00:19:43.009
that But it really didn't the the concept really

00:19:43.009 --> 00:19:45.390
did not before our article did not separate out

00:19:45.390 --> 00:19:49.029
the differences between men and women. And so

00:19:49.029 --> 00:19:51.130
what we found for women is that it's just what

00:19:51.130 --> 00:19:53.789
you said. It didn't matter whether they are considered

00:19:53.789 --> 00:19:56.109
unattractive or whether they were considered

00:19:56.109 --> 00:19:59.450
attractive. Either case could be used as an excuse

00:19:59.450 --> 00:20:05.289
to discount them or to not consider them or whatever

00:20:05.289 --> 00:20:09.509
the situation is. Yeah. Men do not get that amount

00:20:09.509 --> 00:20:13.109
of feedback. No. About how they show up and what

00:20:13.109 --> 00:20:15.150
their outfit looks like or how their hair is.

00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:18.259
Yeah, I'll go on to number three to keep us moving.

00:20:18.740 --> 00:20:21.759
Insufficient support. So this is the idea that

00:20:21.759 --> 00:20:23.880
women don't get as much support in the workplace

00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:27.500
as men. And it includes things that we've heard

00:20:27.500 --> 00:20:30.700
of like lack of mentoring, lack of having a sponsor.

00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:33.640
We talked a little bit earlier about being excluded,

00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:35.940
excluded from unofficial social events, sometimes

00:20:35.940 --> 00:20:39.880
being excluded from formal events. And so all

00:20:39.880 --> 00:20:42.579
of this plays into you don't have the support.

00:20:42.980 --> 00:20:46.059
So you if you don't have the support, you can't,

00:20:46.059 --> 00:20:48.319
you can't, you know, move. It's hard to move

00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:51.700
up. And it's also one thing we found in the research

00:20:51.700 --> 00:20:54.019
is that we'll talk about harassment in a minute,

00:20:54.019 --> 00:20:56.640
but there was a study that compared workplace

00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:00.039
ostracism to workplace harassment in terms of

00:21:00.039 --> 00:21:05.500
the turnover. And what it found was that women

00:21:05.500 --> 00:21:07.220
were actually more likely to stay if they had

00:21:07.220 --> 00:21:10.240
been harassed compared to if they had been ostracized.

00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:13.130
And That seems like counterintuitive, but in

00:21:13.130 --> 00:21:15.410
some ways it makes sense in the fact, in the

00:21:15.410 --> 00:21:16.910
sense if you think about, well, the woman is

00:21:16.910 --> 00:21:20.450
harassed and especially if she's supported throughout

00:21:20.450 --> 00:21:23.690
that experience or after that experience, like

00:21:23.690 --> 00:21:28.589
if there's an investigation or if the person

00:21:28.589 --> 00:21:30.690
is talked to or whatever, like if she's got some

00:21:30.690 --> 00:21:33.490
support after being harassed, she's gonna feel

00:21:33.490 --> 00:21:36.170
like, okay, this organization is backing me up

00:21:36.170 --> 00:21:39.109
and I can move forward and think. hopefully know

00:21:39.109 --> 00:21:40.190
that that's not going to happen again. But if

00:21:40.190 --> 00:21:41.829
you're ostracized, you really just don't have

00:21:41.829 --> 00:21:44.869
any support. You don't have anything. So you

00:21:44.869 --> 00:21:50.029
just are really feeling alone. And so that becomes

00:21:50.029 --> 00:21:53.329
the thing that's the higher likelihood of somebody

00:21:53.329 --> 00:21:56.670
leaving an organization. Makes sense. Very, very

00:21:56.670 --> 00:21:58.970
interesting. Yeah, and it's funny because, you

00:21:58.970 --> 00:22:00.890
know, the insufficient support, like, and this

00:22:00.890 --> 00:22:03.190
has come up throughout the first season, right?

00:22:03.190 --> 00:22:05.269
Like, it was the support professionally from

00:22:05.269 --> 00:22:08.309
a mentor and the exposure and sponsors, but then

00:22:08.309 --> 00:22:11.009
it was also the support at home, right? Like

00:22:11.009 --> 00:22:13.690
having that ability to be a mom, raise your kids,

00:22:13.869 --> 00:22:16.450
aging parents, whatever that cycle of your life

00:22:16.450 --> 00:22:18.730
that you're in. But, you know, people feel they're

00:22:18.730 --> 00:22:20.309
not supported, then they're not going to, oh,

00:22:20.309 --> 00:22:23.630
we can get into ambition. Yeah. Not have, you

00:22:23.630 --> 00:22:27.630
know, that ability to continue to grow. you know,

00:22:27.769 --> 00:22:30.190
you have to make choices and priorities. Yeah.

00:22:30.289 --> 00:22:33.470
And it's also extends into like, like organizational

00:22:33.470 --> 00:22:35.910
and public support. So, and what I mean by that

00:22:35.910 --> 00:22:39.990
is like organizations having good parental leave

00:22:39.990 --> 00:22:43.329
policies, good sick leave policies, you know,

00:22:43.410 --> 00:22:45.950
all the supports that we need so we can work

00:22:45.950 --> 00:22:50.490
and have, you know, kids or family life or personal

00:22:50.490 --> 00:22:53.069
life. By not providing those supports, it's really,

00:22:53.329 --> 00:22:54.869
I look at it and it's like, it's just really

00:22:54.869 --> 00:22:57.450
so short -sighted because we're doing harm to

00:22:57.450 --> 00:23:00.269
the overall economy, right? And it's not harm

00:23:00.269 --> 00:23:03.849
that you can see day in, day out. Maybe you think

00:23:03.849 --> 00:23:05.269
about day in, day out, but if you look at the

00:23:05.269 --> 00:23:08.349
aggregate and you have to expand your mind a

00:23:08.349 --> 00:23:09.769
little bit to think about the things that we're

00:23:09.769 --> 00:23:11.930
missing, I think about it in terms of the things

00:23:11.930 --> 00:23:15.230
we're missing out on. If we don't have women

00:23:15.230 --> 00:23:18.619
and women's perspectives and women's ideas, in

00:23:18.619 --> 00:23:20.319
the workplace. We don't even know what we're

00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:22.700
missing out on in terms of innovations, of growth

00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:26.140
for companies, of all kinds of things. No, and

00:23:26.140 --> 00:23:28.500
everybody has this debate over the work from

00:23:28.500 --> 00:23:30.539
home, work in an office, hybrid, whatever it

00:23:30.539 --> 00:23:33.380
is. At the end of the day, it comes down to being

00:23:33.380 --> 00:23:35.640
flexible and being able to like, hey, I have

00:23:35.640 --> 00:23:38.240
to leave. My kid has a show. I have a doctor's

00:23:38.240 --> 00:23:40.660
appointment, whatever it is. It's companies that

00:23:40.660 --> 00:23:42.779
lack flexibility, which is a lot of them that

00:23:42.779 --> 00:23:44.279
just get your work done. And that's what I would

00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:46.500
always say. I don't care when you work, just

00:23:46.500 --> 00:23:48.599
get done what needs to be done and make sure

00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:50.799
you're there, you know, for the team or whoever

00:23:50.799 --> 00:23:53.240
needs stuff. But like you just get hung up on

00:23:53.240 --> 00:23:55.380
stuff that doesn't really make sense to get hung

00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:57.920
up on like where you're physically working. Yeah.

00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.259
Yeah. And it's, I think it's also, there's a

00:24:00.259 --> 00:24:02.779
couple of things there. It's like a relic to

00:24:02.779 --> 00:24:06.059
like people, sometimes managers don't feel comfortable

00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:09.720
whenever they can't see their people. Um, you

00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:12.099
know, you know, but I would, I would counter

00:24:12.099 --> 00:24:14.039
that with like, we've always been distributed,

00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:16.569
you know, when I, I've been working on university

00:24:16.569 --> 00:24:18.789
campuses, for example. And while the campus is

00:24:18.789 --> 00:24:21.109
within, my campuses have been within a confined

00:24:21.109 --> 00:24:23.190
area. It's not like we're all in the same building,

00:24:23.509 --> 00:24:25.869
right? Like we're in different buildings. Like

00:24:25.869 --> 00:24:28.210
we have to use, you know, email or whatever,

00:24:28.529 --> 00:24:32.559
you know. other tools to connect, the phone and

00:24:32.559 --> 00:24:35.440
stuff. It's the same thing if my coworker is

00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:38.339
in another town or another state. You can still

00:24:38.339 --> 00:24:40.619
be connected. Absolutely. It's about learning

00:24:40.619 --> 00:24:44.500
how to be a good manager. Yeah, and you can waste

00:24:44.500 --> 00:24:46.140
time in the office. I think back to my early

00:24:46.140 --> 00:24:47.859
days when I was in office five days a week and

00:24:47.859 --> 00:24:50.140
people would ... be in the office, say 50 or

00:24:50.140 --> 00:24:52.900
60 hours, but they're in somebody's cube. They

00:24:52.900 --> 00:24:55.240
went to lunch for two hours. They're scrolling

00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:57.220
on, well, it wasn't social media back then, but

00:24:57.220 --> 00:24:58.819
they're scrolling on the website, whatever it

00:24:58.819 --> 00:25:01.539
is. You can always be distracted and not do your

00:25:01.539 --> 00:25:03.559
job. It might matter if your boss is right beside

00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:07.220
you. The number four is devaluation. So devaluation

00:25:07.220 --> 00:25:10.500
is when women are made to seem as unimportant

00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:15.359
or less than. And I'll give you a couple examples.

00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:18.059
One is office housework. If you don't know what

00:25:18.059 --> 00:25:21.880
office housework is, that is doing all of the

00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:25.880
non -career enhancing work. So it's things like

00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:28.380
taking notes in a meeting, cleaning the office

00:25:28.380 --> 00:25:30.660
refrigerator, planning the office party, ordering

00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:34.160
the catering, maybe doing the meeting scheduling.

00:25:35.660 --> 00:25:38.480
And even it can be just helping a colleague with

00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:40.700
a project. Like you're helping a colleague with

00:25:40.700 --> 00:25:43.140
their project, but you don't get credit for it.

00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:45.480
Right. That's another type of office housework.

00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:48.640
And so the thing about office housework is it's

00:25:48.640 --> 00:25:50.880
so important to keep the organization running

00:25:50.880 --> 00:25:54.240
smoothly, but it's often not recognized or rewarded.

00:25:55.619 --> 00:25:57.940
And women are also often under social pressure

00:25:57.940 --> 00:26:01.599
to volunteer. for these tasks. A man can just

00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:03.859
say, I'm busy. Okay, you're busy. A woman says,

00:26:03.940 --> 00:26:06.539
I'm busy. It's like, well, who are you? That

00:26:06.539 --> 00:26:10.099
becomes the issue with office housework. My solution

00:26:10.099 --> 00:26:12.799
to that is that you should either hire an administrative

00:26:12.799 --> 00:26:15.539
assistant type person who that's their job function

00:26:15.539 --> 00:26:18.599
or reward it for the other people who are the

00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:20.059
people in your organization and make sure it's

00:26:20.059 --> 00:26:23.240
equally shared. Sure. I've definitely seen that

00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:25.809
happen. Even we tried to create like a committee

00:26:25.809 --> 00:26:28.069
to be sort of like a team building committee

00:26:28.069 --> 00:26:30.589
and it came into the catering, the orders, the

00:26:30.589 --> 00:26:32.829
events. I think once or twice there was a man

00:26:32.829 --> 00:26:34.930
on the committee and I remember them not doing

00:26:34.930 --> 00:26:37.750
it. It's not their strength. That's okay. Let's

00:26:37.750 --> 00:26:39.950
figure out something else that you can do, but

00:26:39.950 --> 00:26:42.299
let's just be honest and upfront about it. most

00:26:42.299 --> 00:26:43.759
of them are not going to do it. Not everybody,

00:26:44.019 --> 00:26:46.940
but most. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Another

00:26:46.940 --> 00:26:50.319
type is something called benevolent sexism. And

00:26:50.319 --> 00:26:53.519
so we often think of sexism as like the hostile

00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:55.640
type, which is more, which is more overt, but

00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:58.339
benevolent sexism, it's when words, it's when

00:26:58.339 --> 00:27:02.319
actions... or words sound kind, but they're not.

00:27:02.839 --> 00:27:05.319
So it can be like comments on women's appearance,

00:27:05.859 --> 00:27:09.220
like, oh, she looks pretty sitting over there,

00:27:09.339 --> 00:27:11.640
or like telling women to smile, which is actually

00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:15.180
a type of emotional labor. But it's also like

00:27:15.180 --> 00:27:20.230
not giving women opportunities. in a benevolent,

00:27:20.349 --> 00:27:22.289
seemingly benevolent attempt to protect them

00:27:22.289 --> 00:27:24.349
or protect their time. So let's say a woman has

00:27:24.349 --> 00:27:26.710
just had a child. Well, not giving her opportunity

00:27:26.710 --> 00:27:32.410
for promotion or for travel or for critical assignments

00:27:32.410 --> 00:27:34.930
without even asking her, without even getting

00:27:34.930 --> 00:27:42.210
her opinions on it. So that happens far too often.

00:27:42.690 --> 00:27:45.859
I'll give you an example. the devaluation, this

00:27:45.859 --> 00:27:49.480
kind of thing that happened to me. I was in a

00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:52.799
meeting at my workplace and maybe a year or so

00:27:52.799 --> 00:27:55.359
ago and there were three colleagues of mine plus

00:27:55.359 --> 00:27:58.279
an older gentleman who was a vendor, he was an

00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:02.500
architect. He referred to me as young lady and

00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:05.500
he wasn't being, like he wasn't, I could tell

00:28:05.500 --> 00:28:07.420
he wasn't trying to be unkind. He was trying

00:28:07.420 --> 00:28:10.700
to put me in like a, you know, it was like a

00:28:10.700 --> 00:28:12.900
seemingly kind way, a seemingly nice way to try

00:28:12.900 --> 00:28:15.789
to put me in my in a place underneath him, like

00:28:15.789 --> 00:28:18.769
in the, you know, whatever hierarchy there was.

00:28:18.930 --> 00:28:21.569
But it comes across as kind, like it comes across

00:28:21.569 --> 00:28:23.250
selling like it's kind, he's calling me young.

00:28:23.450 --> 00:28:26.130
I don't fit in what I would consider the young

00:28:26.130 --> 00:28:29.869
category anymore, my actual age or whatever,

00:28:30.009 --> 00:28:33.690
right? But he, I think in his mind, he was thinking,

00:28:34.190 --> 00:28:36.930
I don't know what he was thinking, but it comes,

00:28:37.130 --> 00:28:39.150
it's definitely a put down, right? But it comes

00:28:39.150 --> 00:28:41.269
across as like you're saying something that's...

00:28:41.969 --> 00:28:44.089
It's seemingly, seemingly kind, but it's not.

00:28:44.549 --> 00:28:46.990
And I do wonder sometimes because I had somebody

00:28:46.990 --> 00:28:50.150
we worked with who, he was in his sixties, I

00:28:50.150 --> 00:28:54.029
would say. And I think he was a little, I guess,

00:28:54.269 --> 00:28:55.829
stereotypical, not putting women on the same

00:28:55.829 --> 00:28:58.210
level. And part of it maybe was how he was, you

00:28:58.210 --> 00:29:01.150
know, most of his career, but he would call women

00:29:01.150 --> 00:29:03.650
who were in their thirties, girls, and he'd call

00:29:03.650 --> 00:29:05.029
them something else. And I'm totally blanking,

00:29:05.089 --> 00:29:06.549
but I literally said to him, I'm saying, can

00:29:06.549 --> 00:29:09.559
you please stop? referring to them as girls like

00:29:09.559 --> 00:29:11.900
they're in their 30s like this is and he's like

00:29:11.900 --> 00:29:14.400
oh and he he didn't take it well and he kept

00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:16.579
doing it anyway but i'm like i just you know

00:29:16.579 --> 00:29:18.759
i think his was intentional i think sometimes

00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:20.380
it's intentional sometimes they're oblivious

00:29:20.380 --> 00:29:22.339
but there's some who's just like oh we are not

00:29:22.339 --> 00:29:25.220
on the same level as me so i'm gonna you know

00:29:25.220 --> 00:29:27.740
put these labels on you And you can sometimes

00:29:27.740 --> 00:29:29.460
tell if it's intentional or not, because when

00:29:29.460 --> 00:29:31.519
you do call it out, and if you call it out and

00:29:31.519 --> 00:29:33.200
it's not intentional, often the person will be

00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:36.039
like, oh, I wasn't thinking. I'm so sorry. They'll

00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:40.400
try to do better versus taking it personally

00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:46.819
or just continuing behavior. this category devaluation

00:29:46.819 --> 00:29:49.680
we talk about in the book, pet names and diminutives.

00:29:50.220 --> 00:29:52.640
And so in addition to girls, we found women still

00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:56.079
being called like sweetie or honey or sweetheart,

00:29:56.440 --> 00:29:58.720
like just these little pet names that are often

00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.539
used in the home or in romantic relationships,

00:30:01.559 --> 00:30:03.279
but they're not appropriate for a professional

00:30:03.279 --> 00:30:07.779
relationship in the workplace yet. We found women

00:30:07.779 --> 00:30:12.119
reported still hearing them. Interesting. Yeah.

00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:17.849
Number five, hostility. Hostility is the most

00:30:17.849 --> 00:30:25.730
overt form of bias. The goal of hostility is

00:30:25.730 --> 00:30:29.470
to keep women in their place, like to keep them

00:30:29.470 --> 00:30:31.369
in their supposed place underneath the men and

00:30:31.369 --> 00:30:33.390
the gender hierarchy. Because what you'll find,

00:30:33.569 --> 00:30:37.200
I think... is that often hostility, harassment,

00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:40.000
for example, of women can be much worse in the

00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.319
very male -dominated fields, like the trades,

00:30:42.380 --> 00:30:46.480
for example, or fields that are just so heavily

00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:49.180
men. When the women are being harassed in those

00:30:49.180 --> 00:30:52.339
situations, they're being told, like, you don't

00:30:52.339 --> 00:30:55.880
belong here, you know? And they're being told,

00:30:55.880 --> 00:31:00.400
like, your role is to be in the home, to be...

00:31:00.440 --> 00:31:02.440
whatever, but not to be in the workplace competing

00:31:02.440 --> 00:31:06.180
for the male jobs. Right. Or certainly have to

00:31:06.180 --> 00:31:09.640
report to one. Yeah. Okay. And then last, we'll

00:31:09.640 --> 00:31:13.339
go to my last barrier, acquiescence. So acquiescence

00:31:13.339 --> 00:31:16.000
is a result, as a result of all of the other

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:18.819
barriers women often acquiesce to their supposed

00:31:18.819 --> 00:31:23.160
place in the male normed culture. And this can

00:31:23.160 --> 00:31:25.509
be through things like self -silencing, like

00:31:25.509 --> 00:31:28.289
being silent, like not speaking up on behalf

00:31:28.289 --> 00:31:31.650
of other women or behalf of themselves, if bias

00:31:31.650 --> 00:31:35.849
or sexism occurs to them. Also can happen is

00:31:35.849 --> 00:31:39.990
that they limit their own aspirations. And when

00:31:39.990 --> 00:31:41.930
women limit their aspirations, it's for one of

00:31:41.930 --> 00:31:44.430
two reasons. One is because they've internalized

00:31:44.430 --> 00:31:45.990
all the other barriers and they really believe

00:31:45.990 --> 00:31:48.470
they aren't capable. Like I'm not capable of

00:31:48.470 --> 00:31:50.670
being whatever, whether it's the next level up

00:31:50.670 --> 00:31:53.529
in the hierarchy or doing something else. They

00:31:53.529 --> 00:31:56.089
believe they're not capable, which we call a

00:31:56.089 --> 00:31:59.690
psychological glass ceiling. The other type is

00:31:59.690 --> 00:32:02.269
when women know they think they are, they know

00:32:02.269 --> 00:32:03.990
they're capable, but they just don't want the

00:32:03.990 --> 00:32:06.329
hassles. They don't want the hassles of moving

00:32:06.329 --> 00:32:09.430
up, right? They've seen what's happened to them,

00:32:09.549 --> 00:32:10.670
they've seen what's happened to other women,

00:32:10.769 --> 00:32:13.210
and they just are like, I'm going to stay where

00:32:13.210 --> 00:32:17.950
I'm at and save my emotional sanity. mental and

00:32:17.950 --> 00:32:20.210
emotional sanity and my physical health too.

00:32:21.049 --> 00:32:24.109
We know that the stress also impacts physical

00:32:24.109 --> 00:32:25.829
health. So they're making, whenever women limit

00:32:25.829 --> 00:32:27.950
their aspirations like that, they're making a

00:32:27.950 --> 00:32:30.730
very rational choice. Acquiescence sounds like,

00:32:30.890 --> 00:32:33.269
okay, this is like, the things in this chapter

00:32:33.269 --> 00:32:34.869
often sound like, well, that's just the women's

00:32:34.869 --> 00:32:37.690
choice. Like the work -life conflict is one thing

00:32:37.690 --> 00:32:40.529
we talk about. Well, this woman is like choosing

00:32:40.529 --> 00:32:43.390
to, you know, she wants to stay home with the

00:32:43.390 --> 00:32:47.029
children and you know, whatever. She's choosing

00:32:47.029 --> 00:32:49.609
that or she's choosing a lower paying job. Well,

00:32:50.089 --> 00:32:52.950
it's often it's a bigger It's like first of all

00:32:52.950 --> 00:32:55.130
the workplace isn't providing supports, you know,

00:32:55.230 --> 00:32:57.470
like good childcare. That's affordable where

00:32:57.470 --> 00:33:01.089
she could you know, she could go to work It's

00:33:01.089 --> 00:33:04.809
all it's all it's all a response right to everything

00:33:04.809 --> 00:33:06.390
else in the environment It's not just a woman.

00:33:06.769 --> 00:33:08.430
It's usually not just a woman making a decision

00:33:08.430 --> 00:33:10.430
because this is really really really what I prefer

00:33:10.430 --> 00:33:12.349
It's like I'm making this decision because this

00:33:12.349 --> 00:33:15.750
is the way society is set up. Yep Yeah, it's

00:33:15.750 --> 00:33:17.589
so true. And it goes back to the whole McKinsey

00:33:17.589 --> 00:33:20.809
with their research about that. Women don't have

00:33:20.809 --> 00:33:23.789
the same ambition as men. And it's true, but

00:33:23.789 --> 00:33:25.569
it's not for the reasons that it's portrayed.

00:33:26.029 --> 00:33:28.410
It's just choices because you're fighting an

00:33:28.410 --> 00:33:30.809
uphill battle, you're stressed, you're not sleeping,

00:33:31.130 --> 00:33:33.329
your anxiety's through the roof because you're

00:33:33.329 --> 00:33:35.470
in the situation where you're not supported and

00:33:35.470 --> 00:33:38.589
you don't have the infrastructure to be able

00:33:38.589 --> 00:33:41.869
to be successful. So I think that's the challenge.

00:33:42.049 --> 00:33:43.069
And you're right, people are like, oh, well,

00:33:43.069 --> 00:33:45.579
they're just they just choose to, you know, focus

00:33:45.579 --> 00:33:48.299
on their family. Well, you can do both with the

00:33:48.299 --> 00:33:51.279
right support. But again, there's choices, there's

00:33:51.279 --> 00:33:53.539
sacrifices. And you know, it's making that decision

00:33:53.539 --> 00:33:55.859
of how many sacrifices you have to make. And

00:33:55.859 --> 00:33:58.589
do you want to deal with the higher up you go,

00:33:58.750 --> 00:34:00.349
right? Like people just sort of get into this

00:34:00.349 --> 00:34:02.569
mindset of, oh, I want to get promoted. I want

00:34:02.569 --> 00:34:04.990
to be a VP. I want to be a CEO because it's more

00:34:04.990 --> 00:34:07.410
money. It's a bigger title. It's power. But they

00:34:07.410 --> 00:34:09.929
don't see all the stuff behind the curtain that

00:34:09.929 --> 00:34:12.070
you're dealing with one to get there, but then

00:34:12.070 --> 00:34:15.030
two to stay there and what the sacrifices are

00:34:15.030 --> 00:34:17.030
that have to be made. And some do. And that's

00:34:17.030 --> 00:34:18.800
why they're like... I'm good. I just need to

00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:21.780
make a decent pay. I want to be able to support

00:34:21.780 --> 00:34:24.559
my family. I like to work. I'm motivated. I want

00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:27.639
to contribute. But it's that give and take that

00:34:27.639 --> 00:34:29.840
I think women end up being more realistic about

00:34:29.840 --> 00:34:33.179
because they realize what it takes and it's not

00:34:33.179 --> 00:34:36.440
fun. So what's it worth? Right. I think the point

00:34:36.440 --> 00:34:38.159
you're highlighting is so true. When you read

00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:42.280
the findings from McKinsey, which were that there

00:34:42.280 --> 00:34:48.599
was a gap overall in their Report it was 69 percent

00:34:48.599 --> 00:34:50.579
of early career women wanted a promotion versus

00:34:50.579 --> 00:34:52.679
80 percent of their male peers and the senior

00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:56.280
level was 84 percent of women uh versus 92 of

00:34:56.280 --> 00:35:00.099
the percent of their male peers Like that can

00:35:00.099 --> 00:35:03.219
be framed easily, um, or too easily as okay.

00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:04.559
Like it's just a woman's choice. She doesn't

00:35:04.559 --> 00:35:07.000
she's not ambitious But it really is a response.

00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:08.619
Like you're saying, it really is a response to

00:35:08.619 --> 00:35:12.340
all of the other societal lack of support and

00:35:12.340 --> 00:35:15.059
the barriers that women face and that they know

00:35:15.059 --> 00:35:17.199
that they'll face. Yeah. Oh, it's crazy. Well,

00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:20.659
we're getting close on our time, but all six,

00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:23.519
I have lived it, breathed it, done it, survived

00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:25.960
it, sometimes cried about it, whatever it is.

00:35:26.340 --> 00:35:28.380
And you mentioned that you talk about solutions.

00:35:28.699 --> 00:35:31.280
So I know there are six that are very different.

00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:34.760
How do we move forward? Like, how as women do

00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:37.599
we overcome these gender biases in a, I mean,

00:35:37.599 --> 00:35:39.159
I wish there was a magic wand, that'd be much

00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:41.239
easier, but you know, what's sort of like the

00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:43.300
approach to this to be able to move forward?

00:35:43.820 --> 00:35:45.559
Yeah, well, first of all, the approach in the

00:35:45.559 --> 00:35:49.199
book is that we put the onus on leaders in organizations

00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:51.739
to fix the culture and to fix the environment

00:35:51.739 --> 00:35:53.860
and to be supportive of women and make sure that

00:35:53.860 --> 00:35:55.699
they've got equal pay and make sure that they've

00:35:55.699 --> 00:35:57.679
got all the same supports that their men have

00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:00.079
and make sure that, you know, that there's a

00:36:00.079 --> 00:36:03.559
fair playing field uh you know for you know for

00:36:03.559 --> 00:36:06.179
the women and so in the book like i said we have

00:36:06.179 --> 00:36:09.039
solutions for leaders allies and individual women

00:36:09.039 --> 00:36:12.340
and we have a whole chapter for leaders where

00:36:12.340 --> 00:36:15.400
we have a um what's called a gender equity and

00:36:15.400 --> 00:36:18.079
inclusion roadmap it's from level zero to level

00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:19.980
five level zero is sticking your head in the

00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:21.860
mud as an organization and doing absolutely nothing

00:36:21.860 --> 00:36:24.239
which most organizations aren't there level one

00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:26.519
is like compliance level two is doing ad hoc

00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:29.719
things and then it goes up to full full inclusion

00:36:29.719 --> 00:36:34.519
and full equity and inclusion, which is a very,

00:36:34.639 --> 00:36:37.860
it's an ideal point to get to. I will say, I

00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:40.900
don't think any company is actually at that point

00:36:40.900 --> 00:36:43.639
because it's just so unfortunately so infiltrated

00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:47.980
in our society. But you can use this roadmap

00:36:47.980 --> 00:36:50.619
to see where is your organization on this continuum

00:36:50.619 --> 00:36:52.559
and it gives you steps for like what you can

00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:56.989
do to get yourself, you know. up the road and

00:36:56.989 --> 00:37:01.190
improve, exactly. So we have that for leaders.

00:37:01.610 --> 00:37:04.030
Then we talk about steps for allies, which I'll

00:37:04.030 --> 00:37:06.289
summarize as really coming and being supportive

00:37:06.289 --> 00:37:10.329
of women, speaking up for them on behalf of them.

00:37:11.030 --> 00:37:13.769
The quick example is if they're interrupted in

00:37:13.769 --> 00:37:16.119
a meeting, throwing it. throwing the conversation

00:37:16.119 --> 00:37:19.360
back to them, if they're being heap -heated,

00:37:19.719 --> 00:37:21.840
stepping in and saying something like, hey, Maria

00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:23.639
just said that, let's hear more about what she

00:37:23.639 --> 00:37:28.480
has to say. And then it also goes to, sometimes

00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:32.400
it can just be being a confidant, a listening

00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:38.059
ear to women who need someone to talk to and

00:37:38.059 --> 00:37:42.079
need support. It also can mean identifying, looking

00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:43.880
around, thinking about the women in your workplace

00:37:43.880 --> 00:37:46.840
and And thinking about them in the same terms

00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:49.500
of as men like if you see your male counterpart

00:37:49.500 --> 00:37:52.519
has potential for that next Promotion. Well think

00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:55.099
about what other women counterparts also have

00:37:55.099 --> 00:37:57.239
Colleagues also have that same potential right

00:37:57.239 --> 00:38:00.460
and suggest them actively suggest them to To

00:38:00.460 --> 00:38:02.099
leaders or if you're on a search committee, you

00:38:02.099 --> 00:38:05.280
know, you know speak speak out and also actively

00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:10.099
look for for biasing and counter it and by that

00:38:10.099 --> 00:38:13.809
I mean there's a Simple test. It's called flip

00:38:13.809 --> 00:38:16.909
it to test it and What you do is if you hear

00:38:16.909 --> 00:38:19.090
if you hear a criticism of a woman like she's

00:38:19.090 --> 00:38:22.190
not wearing pantyhose you think Would that same

00:38:22.190 --> 00:38:25.650
thing be said of a man? Would anybody be commenting

00:38:25.650 --> 00:38:28.469
on a man's legs in the context of an interview?

00:38:28.849 --> 00:38:34.969
No. So then you know that it's unfair. Or another

00:38:34.969 --> 00:38:38.210
one that's unfortunately maybe more common is

00:38:38.210 --> 00:38:39.769
we're not going to hire her or give her that

00:38:39.769 --> 00:38:41.550
promotion because she's going to have a baby

00:38:41.550 --> 00:38:44.210
or she might have a baby or call it maybe baby

00:38:44.210 --> 00:38:47.730
bias. We never say that about men. It doesn't

00:38:47.730 --> 00:38:50.349
matter if they're going to be a parent or not.

00:38:51.480 --> 00:38:54.300
But then for women, okay? So, because when it

00:38:54.300 --> 00:38:56.579
comes, you know, we all want to know like, what

00:38:56.579 --> 00:38:59.860
can we do, you know? And while we don't put in

00:38:59.860 --> 00:39:02.440
the book, we don't put the onus on women to like

00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:05.789
rectify this. entire problem, we do give strategies

00:39:05.789 --> 00:39:08.329
for women to help, you know, to navigate the

00:39:08.329 --> 00:39:11.690
issue, certainly mitigate it and to what we call

00:39:11.690 --> 00:39:14.110
it as taking charge of your own success. And

00:39:14.110 --> 00:39:15.829
so, you know, the first thing is becoming aware

00:39:15.829 --> 00:39:18.409
of bias, learning as much as you can about it,

00:39:18.710 --> 00:39:20.849
learning to recognize it. That's the kind of

00:39:20.849 --> 00:39:23.670
the point of the book is that we pull all the

00:39:23.670 --> 00:39:25.289
different examples out so that when you're going

00:39:25.289 --> 00:39:27.929
through your workday or your career, if you run

00:39:27.929 --> 00:39:29.510
into something, you can say, I know what this

00:39:29.510 --> 00:39:32.050
is. As soon as you can say, I know what this

00:39:32.050 --> 00:39:34.110
is, that can help you to not take it personally.

00:39:34.170 --> 00:39:36.690
Sure. Because the next thing is depersonalize.

00:39:36.769 --> 00:39:40.369
If it happens to you, know that it's not specific

00:39:40.369 --> 00:39:42.309
to you. It's not about you. It's about something,

00:39:42.510 --> 00:39:44.889
unfortunately, bigger, right? But it happens

00:39:44.889 --> 00:39:47.530
to all of us. Just being able to depersonalize

00:39:47.530 --> 00:39:49.570
can help you deal with it in a more rational,

00:39:49.730 --> 00:39:51.289
take the emotion out of it and help you come

00:39:51.289 --> 00:39:54.010
up with a logical, rational solution and not

00:39:54.010 --> 00:39:55.510
have to feel like you don't have to feel ashamed

00:39:55.510 --> 00:39:57.110
or bad about yourself. This is something that

00:39:57.110 --> 00:39:59.420
happens to all of us and it's not. specific to

00:39:59.420 --> 00:40:02.300
you. Certainly building your support network,

00:40:02.619 --> 00:40:05.699
you know, is another thing that we tell women

00:40:05.699 --> 00:40:08.519
to do. And then last we say, make sure you have

00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:12.960
alternatives. I say always try to rectify like

00:40:12.960 --> 00:40:15.139
whatever the situation is in your own workplace,

00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:16.900
you know, but if you keep running into barriers,

00:40:17.059 --> 00:40:19.760
you keep running into, you know, like if it's

00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:22.570
toxic for sure. Think about what your alternatives

00:40:22.570 --> 00:40:25.309
are. Can you get any other job in the same organization,

00:40:25.389 --> 00:40:26.989
at a different organization? Can you go work

00:40:26.989 --> 00:40:29.309
for yourself? Can you go back to school? Just

00:40:29.309 --> 00:40:33.070
have alternatives on the table that you've fought

00:40:33.070 --> 00:40:35.289
through so that you don't have to feel stuck

00:40:35.289 --> 00:40:38.110
in one situation. Don't let that one job or that

00:40:38.110 --> 00:40:42.449
one boss impact your sanity or your career. Absolutely.

00:40:44.070 --> 00:40:46.690
That's such great advice because when you listen

00:40:46.690 --> 00:40:49.610
to those... gender biases and we like I'm sure

00:40:49.610 --> 00:40:51.909
anybody listen to this like yep sounds heard

00:40:51.909 --> 00:40:54.409
heard that happen to be in my situation Whatever

00:40:54.409 --> 00:40:56.610
it is. It can be really overwhelming But I mean

00:40:56.610 --> 00:40:59.469
if you if you boil it down for whether it's leadership

00:40:59.469 --> 00:41:02.639
or for a woman like it's awareness, just being

00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:04.619
aware, having the conversations, talking about

00:41:04.619 --> 00:41:07.139
it. And then being intentional to your point

00:41:07.139 --> 00:41:08.800
of whether you're in leadership, like, okay,

00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:10.679
what can we do? What can we change? I love the

00:41:10.679 --> 00:41:12.139
flipping it. Like, would you say it's about a

00:41:12.139 --> 00:41:14.840
man? And the same thing for women. So I love

00:41:14.840 --> 00:41:17.039
that, that it can feel so overwhelming, like,

00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:19.039
oh my God, we're never going to fix this. It's

00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:21.219
never going to get better, but it steps and it's

00:41:21.219 --> 00:41:25.519
just making progress is all we can do. We can't,

00:41:25.519 --> 00:41:27.550
again, I joked about the magic wand. Unfortunately,

00:41:27.710 --> 00:41:30.090
I don't think that's happening anytime soon.

00:41:30.550 --> 00:41:32.469
So let's be aware. Let's be intentional. Let's

00:41:32.469 --> 00:41:34.849
have conversations and let's support each other

00:41:34.849 --> 00:41:37.369
is what it comes down to. So when I think about

00:41:37.369 --> 00:41:39.349
it that way, it makes me feel better versus me

00:41:39.349 --> 00:41:43.929
wanting to go cry about the craziness of it.

00:41:44.710 --> 00:41:46.670
So Amy, this was so awesome. If people want to

00:41:46.670 --> 00:41:48.829
find your book or more information, how can they

00:41:48.829 --> 00:41:51.039
connect with you? Yeah, so you can go to my website.

00:41:51.420 --> 00:41:57.820
It's Amy -Deal, D -I -E -H -L dot com, Amy -Deal

00:41:57.820 --> 00:42:00.920
dot com. So the ordering links for my book are

00:42:00.920 --> 00:42:04.340
on my website. It has just come out and it has

00:42:04.340 --> 00:42:06.619
been out in hardback. It's now out in paperback.

00:42:07.179 --> 00:42:09.619
Audiobook is new too. And of course it's available

00:42:09.619 --> 00:42:11.679
in eBook as well. Awesome. And all those order

00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:13.719
links are available on my website. Perfect. And

00:42:13.719 --> 00:42:15.139
we'll put that all in the show notes too. We'll

00:42:15.139 --> 00:42:17.539
link to all that on the website. So Amy, thank

00:42:17.539 --> 00:42:19.099
you so much for being here and thank you for

00:42:18.889 --> 00:42:21.230
for doing this amazing research. And I can't

00:42:21.230 --> 00:42:24.409
wait to see the impact that we'll have for our

00:42:24.409 --> 00:42:27.250
world as we move forward. So thank you. Thank

00:42:27.250 --> 00:42:29.969
you so much, Betsy. I could talk about this for

00:42:29.969 --> 00:42:32.230
hours because every single one of these glass

00:42:32.230 --> 00:42:34.329
walls, I've lived it. I've watched it happen.

00:42:34.329 --> 00:42:36.269
And I know so many of you listening have too.

00:42:36.710 --> 00:42:38.730
Here's what I hope you take away. If you've been

00:42:38.730 --> 00:42:40.750
running into invisible barriers at work, you're

00:42:40.750 --> 00:42:43.570
not imagining it and you're not alone. Naming

00:42:43.570 --> 00:42:46.400
it matters because the second you can say, I

00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:48.980
know what this is. You stop making it a character

00:42:48.980 --> 00:42:51.940
flaw. And I love that Amy doesn't put it all

00:42:51.940 --> 00:42:54.800
on women to fix ourselves. Yes, we can build

00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:57.219
support, stay aware, and keep options on the

00:42:57.219 --> 00:43:00.480
table. But leaders have to own culture, systems,

00:43:00.780 --> 00:43:04.059
pay, equity, and opportunity. And allies, please

00:43:04.059 --> 00:43:07.519
hear this. Your voice really matters. If this

00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:09.460
episode hit, please share it with a friend, someone

00:43:09.460 --> 00:43:12.420
navigating these same dynamics. This is how we

00:43:12.420 --> 00:43:15.150
change the conversation. Until next time, stay

00:43:15.150 --> 00:43:16.510
loud and stay lifted.