Career Growth For Women: Reinvention, Roadmaps & Leading Through Change — with Sonja Price

00:01.36
Betsy Hamm
Sonia Price, welcome to Loud and Lifted. Thank you so much for being here today.

00:07.25
Sonja Price
Thank you, Betsy. It's such an honor to be on your show.

00:10.95
Betsy Hamm
Thank you. So let's start this conversation. Let's talk about you and let's talk about your so story and how you really reinvented your career through the years.

00:22.11
Sonja Price
Oh boy. Okay. Well, i have reinvented myself a handful of times. And, you know, I started right out of college many, many years ago. I worked for a startup and i kind of fell into the role of a product manager.

00:37.49
Sonja Price
product manager slash usability test engineer. and while I was working for that startup organization, i really observed and analyzed the leadership of the organization because we got several rounds of funding.

00:51.56
Sonja Price
And each and every time that we hired a new leader or a new team member, the culture and the team dynamics would shift overnight. And that got me really interested in what makes great leaders and what makes bad leaders, because I saw examples of both.

01:07.54
Betsy Hamm
Right.

01:07.76
Sonja Price
And and so I went back to school and I got a master's in leadership and organization development and then eventually used that to shift into completely different career and got into consulting.

01:23.21
Sonja Price
I really loved that. I was doing change management consulting. However, I always had this entrepreneurial pursuit. And so I started a few companies on the side, including my own tech company, where I was the leader.

01:38.35
Sonja Price
And I got to learn a lot about What does it mean to be a good leader myself? You know, and probably did it wrong, like you know, so some of the time, but also, yeah, but you know, you learn through failure.

01:45.19
Betsy Hamm
Sure. At some point, yeah.

01:50.04
Sonja Price
And I think, um you know, always having people's best interests at heart. I think you you can fail and you can make bad decisions, but as long as you take care of your people and you own, you know, you own your mistakes and you know how to bounce back from that, you know how to be resilient.

02:07.51
Sonja Price
I think a lot of people can be really forgiving, know, and And I think people follow authenticity. um But I've continued on in consulting and then i started another business.

02:19.86
Sonja Price
And I did a career coaching practice, ah leadership development practice, And now I'm primarily focused on team development and working with senior level leaders, helping them understand how to navigate change and how to address all of the challenges that come along with that, both at a personal level, but also from you know leading change and orchestrating environments and cultures and workplaces where people really want to be a part of it.

02:48.76
Betsy Hamm
Oh my gosh. So if you think about how that has come in this big full circle moment, right?

02:53.31
Betsy Hamm
Like you had these different career paths that you went down and you created lot of change for yourself. And now you're helping others deal with change.

03:03.62
Betsy Hamm
And I guess my first question is, you know, how have you learned to embrace change rather than fear it? Because a lot of people do fear change.

03:11.67
Sonja Price
hmm. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, from a personal perspective, you know, switching careers. It's really not about starting over. And I think a lot of people think, oh, I want to do something totally different, but then I'm going to have to take this huge step back.

03:26.12
Sonja Price
And I think that's the wrong mindset to bring to it, because I really think that it is about bringing your full toolkit with you into a new arena And knowing how to market and position yourself effectively for the roles that you want to land.

03:43.56
Sonja Price
So many, many, many skills are transferable. However, depending upon the field, the industry and the organization, they call those skills something slightly different.

03:55.12
Sonja Price
So if you can learn how to shift your jargon, shift your mindset, shift your language and know how to talk about yourself effectively, then I think, you know, that That truly is some of the secret sauce of being able to successfully shift careers without feeling like you have to start all over, take a huge step back.

04:14.94
Betsy Hamm
that's That makes sense. And, you know, in previous episodes, we've talked about things like ah career security over job security, right? Like your job might not be secure, but you as a person can be career or your career can be stable.

04:27.43
Betsy Hamm
um But also from a brand perspective and that personal brand. So as you were going through these different roles, how are you building your personal brand?

04:37.19
Sonja Price
Oh, well, such a great question. I mean, I think a lot of it is really about, ah you know, there's always this sweet spark sweet spot ah between what are your passions or what do you want to do? What is your skill set?

04:51.19
Sonja Price
And then also, what is the market demanding? And i think I think we oftentimes will kind of over-index on one side of that, right?

04:54.45
Betsy Hamm
True.

05:00.08
Sonja Price
We'll say, oh, this is what I'm passionate about. This is what I want to do. But then we fail to do the market research to say, well, is that actually a viable career? Are there plenty of opportunities out there?

05:11.58
Sonja Price
Who's hiring for it? What do they pay? Will that afford the kind of lifestyle that I want to have? Does that give me enough resources to care for my family and do all the things that I want to do? um Or vice versa, people say, well, I'm just going to go after the highest paying role or I'm going to go after you know what is most available.

05:29.82
Sonja Price
um And again, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you're lacking the passion or the motivation to do it, then is it just going to be a slog every day? Like maybe you can land a job doing it, but then are you going to, you know, three months, six months, a year into it, are you're go to be like, oh, my God, why did I choose this path?

05:39.55
Betsy Hamm
Right.

05:47.70
Sonja Price
Maybe it's time for me to start over again or, you know, reevaluate and reconsider something else.

05:53.70
Betsy Hamm
So that ever happened to you? Did you ever make a change or a change happened to you and then you were like, oh, wow, why did I do that?

06:02.05
Sonja Price
Yeah. Yes, actually. To be totally authentic, you know, and and I think I think this is part of growth and living life. Like things don't always turn out the way that we want it to.

06:15.76
Sonja Price
um So when i I went to school for leadership and organization development and i when I when I initially went to school, I was like, cool. this going to be so great, so easy. And as soon as I get this fancy degree, companies are going to be lining up to hire me.

06:31.75
Sonja Price
However, i didn't really know that there were several different facets inside of that very broad category.

06:38.69
Sonja Price
Like, what does that even mean? Leadership and organization development. And so then I went on a journey of researching like, well, what does, you know, do I want to get into training?

06:49.36
Sonja Price
Do I want to get into executive coaching? Do I want to get into um change management, you know, or then even inside of consulting, you could say consulting. And what does that mean?

06:59.95
Sonja Price
There's so many different endeavors, right? So based on my research at the time, I really, I i i studied it based on what paid what paid the most and what I thought that I could qualify for.

07:10.86
Betsy Hamm
check

07:12.70
Sonja Price
And I ended up getting a few different jobs in change management And, you know, I learned a ton. I really did learn a ton. So I have zero regrets about doing that.

07:23.50
Sonja Price
But what I found is that it it it actually really was not the right fit for me because it was just so chaotic, like really chaotic.

07:33.99
Sonja Price
And, um and being an external consultant, sometimes it's really hard to have the level of influence that I really desire to help help create the change that these organizations were asking for.

07:46.01
Sonja Price
And so, you know, I learned a ton. But ultimately, what I realized is that what I really loved at at that particular moment in time,

07:48.81
Betsy Hamm
sure

07:54.11
Sonja Price
was coaching executives and how to help them think about the change and how to help them lead the change. So instead of being a consultant where everyone was looking at me and saying, you do it, you you do it, you lead the change, which, you know, there's, there's many, many, many different aspects of change management and, and, um,

08:06.56
Betsy Hamm
You're the bad guy.

08:12.12
Sonja Price
It's part of what makes it so interesting, but part of what also makes it so overwhelming is that there's many different, many different juggling acts of like, oh, we got to be paying attention to this and what's going on with these stakeholders and is everybody enrolled and da, da, da, da.

08:25.01
Sonja Price
But I realized that it's actually the leaders who need to be the most involved and they need to be the one. leading the change.

08:32.65
Sonja Price
And that's what I loved the most was actually coaching executives and senior level leaders to know, okay, Hey, this is your organization. This is your team. Let's help you craft the narrative and let's help you overcome the challenges, you know, inherent, inherent in this for you.

08:49.39
Sonja Price
But really we need to help you be in the limelight and people need to be hearing from you because it's ultimately who you who they're going to follow.

08:55.84
Betsy Hamm
Sure. That's, yeah, that's so true. It has to be coming from internally that people who are going to be still there, you know, next year.

09:04.06
Betsy Hamm
So when you're working with these leaders, because there is this concern over uncertainty and just not knowing it's happen. And as a leader, you got to be able to deal with it, whether it's change that you agree with or not. But how do you get leaders to reframe that change as an opportunity versus a risk and getting them on board to help, you know, sell it to their team essentially?

09:20.43
Sonja Price
a Yeah. Well, you know, I think I've kind of um over time learned to help, like I've learned that the best leaders don't resist change.

09:33.79
Sonja Price
They learn how to surf it because change is a constant.

09:38.24
Sonja Price
It's always going to be happening. So if we think of change more as a wave and help people know how to surf that wave and not wipe out in the process,

09:50.45
Sonja Price
then how do we ah you know how how do we work with how do we work with these folks to help them understand that, look, this is always going to be happening. even though Even though we have this big, huge change initiative, it might last 12 or 18 months or however long that this large scale enterprise-wide change might happen, but it will continue.

10:11.36
Sonja Price
you know It will continue to move on. And if it's not this, it's something else. And so how how can we help people overcome that initial resistance to change and actually develop the skills to just know like, hey, this is kind of a normal part of life and and who you are and how you how you engage with it and how you show up and your presence inside of it really matters.

10:36.10
Sonja Price
And to um you know help people understand that like our our nervous systems are a huge component of this. And I think this there's a lot of new science around this. And this is a personal area of curiosity for me now is how do we help everyone be able to calm our nervous system so that we can handle the challenges that show up for us on a day-to-day basis, because it's always going to happen.

11:01.88
Sonja Price
But how do you know how how do we surf this and how do we think of it as a wave and not just like, oh my God, this is complete chaos and just you know this this wipe out that that really causes people to withdraw and not even want to engage at all.

11:16.84
Betsy Hamm
I love that analogy of surfing and waves because that is so true. It's going to come and go and it's not going to stop, right? Like just like a wave, they to keep coming. Sometimes they're bigger and sometimes they make a bigger impact than you anticipated, but um that makes so much sense.

11:32.83
Betsy Hamm
And that happens in our personal lives too, right? So I think sometimes we forget that, that people have stuff changing in their personal lives as well as professionally, and you're trying to balance lots of waves coming in at one time from different directions.

11:44.25
Betsy Hamm
um And the neuro system part is interesting. So is there anything in like layman's terms that we couldn't understand of of how we can help control that personally?

11:53.48
Sonja Price
a I mean, as simple as doing some deep breathing, really, truly like that, that is the most simple thing is just come back to the breath, take 10 deep breaths.

12:06.45
Sonja Price
Take some time. you know, i I use insight timer, if anyone is familiar with that.

12:11.42
Sonja Price
And depending upon how much time that I have, you know, if i if I feel my nervous system starting to ramp up, if I have time in between meetings, I go and find a quiet space and I'll put it on for five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes.

12:24.75
Sonja Price
um I generally don't have time for more than 15 minutes, but I do recognize that if I just take that time and space to myself, close my eyes, get internal, and really just, you know, saying whatever I need to say to myself of, you know, sometimes and that i can be very authentic here, right? But...

12:44.74
Sonja Price
um Sometimes it's just a matter of like connecting with our inner child because that's usually who's screaming in the background.

12:53.00
Sonja Price
And our thought process is so crazy that we're like, I need to do this and I got to take care of this. And these emails need to be answered. And so-and-so wants this from me, but actually just slowing down and being in our bodies. I really, really, really believe in the in the power of embodiment practices.

13:09.77
Sonja Price
And I really believe that this this is a secret key for all of society as we move forward is to learn how to calm ourselves down and and to actually speak to that inner child.

13:21.88
Sonja Price
And, um you know, I feel a little bit funny saying this on this business podcast, but really just like, you know, touching base, connecting with your heart, putting a hand on your heart, putting a hand on your on your gut, your abdomen, right?

13:26.53
Betsy Hamm
No.

13:33.43
Sonja Price
And just connecting with that that little one and being like, look, I love you. I got you. i got you. Like there is no challenge greater. You know, there's no challenge that we can't get through.

13:45.60
Sonja Price
And I, I will care for you. I got you. I'll take care of you. And, you know, whatever these emails are, whatever the boss is screaming about, whatever's going on. It's okay.

13:56.54
Sonja Price
It's okay. And I, ah I'm in control here. I've got this. I'm going to take care of this. And, you know, um, one of my mentors very early on in my career, and I love this, she said to me, you know what, Sonia, if you don't answer all your emails today, no small children will die as a result of it.

14:16.71
Betsy Hamm
Right.

14:17.08
Sonja Price
was like, oh, right, right.

14:20.33
Sonja Price
You know, and we have that we have that lizard brain back there that thinks like, oh, my God, this guy is falling.

14:25.73
Sonja Price
Like, if I don't take care of this, you know, the tiger, the tiger is going to jump on me and eat me. And ah that's not true. It's not true.

14:32.26
Betsy Hamm
Yeah.

14:32.95
Sonja Price
It's not true.

14:33.82
Betsy Hamm
Need a little perspective at time because you're right.

14:33.83
Sonja Price
Yeah.

14:35.78
Betsy Hamm
Most of us are not dealing and stuff that's that mission critical, um that it's not going to be there tomorrow or anything detrimental is going to happen to anybody else.

14:35.98
Sonja Price
Mm hmm.

14:42.83
Betsy Hamm
So I think that's so important. And I love the breathing aspect, right? I think that's something that we don't take time to do. And funny, I go to yoga and a lot of times the beginning, they have like a mindfulness part where you have to sit there in silence and breathe and, you know, try to not think about anything, right? Think about everything.

15:00.26
Betsy Hamm
But it's, it's hard because it's, we're constantly going and we're constantly overloaded.

15:05.79
Betsy Hamm
So to have to sit there and just breathe and listen to your breath and and try to keep your mind clear, like, I don't know. I don't know if it's getting any easier, but at least I feel like I'm thinking less stuff, but it just, it's a good reset.

15:17.42
Betsy Hamm
And to, you know, do that anytime during the day when you feel like you're ah little um going crazy, i think that's just a good, a good thing to focus on.

15:25.98
Betsy Hamm
And that's, I said, I joked about the layman terms. Well, yes, we can all do that. We can all sit there. can all take deep breaths. um I love that. That's very interesting. Is there any other tips like that?

15:35.81
Sonja Price
And we can actually do it together, which I would love to add this here is that, you know, oftentimes we think that self-care needs to be done alone in silence.

15:46.55
Sonja Price
But we can all care for ourselves and we can do it collectively. And I will tell you that like this is a practice that I've incorporated in the work that I do with teams. And when we're going through strategic planning sessions and you you know talking about big change and all these things, I can feel it in the room. I can feel everybody starting to ramp up.

16:04.70
Sonja Price
And so sometimes I'll just say, hey, it's time for a break. Everybody go get a drink of water. get a snack, you know, if you need to make a phone call, like do what you got to do, but be back in 10 minutes or however long, you know, 10, 20 minutes, however long we have time for.

16:18.62
Sonja Price
And then when we come back, I will actually start the meeting with some breathing exercises and help everybody just calm down and be at the same level with each other um as much as possible.

16:30.74
Sonja Price
Right. And you better believe that that creates such a different dynamic in the room

16:36.63
Betsy Hamm
Right.

16:37.57
Sonja Price
And if you can get everybody to calm down and just like, you know, bring it back down, get everybody on the same base level together, people will think more clearly, they will ah listen to each other more effectively and and be less likely to jump all over each other and be like, yeah, but blah, blah, blah, blah.

16:58.11
Sonja Price
And it's funny, you know some of these large scale projects that I've run, when it all comes down to the end and I say, hey, you know asking for feedback, asking for areas of improvement consistently, i always hear, oh my God, I loved it when you made us breathe together.

17:15.61
Sonja Price
And it's like, is that simple? It is that simple. So, you know, i I offer that to anybody who's listening is like and it doesn't matter if you are the decision maker, the one in charge, like if you're in a meeting and you see it ramping up, like, is that something that you might feel comfortable requesting for everyone?

17:19.33
Betsy Hamm
Oh my gosh. but

17:35.91
Sonja Price
You know, and if you're a project manager product manager whatever, could you actually, if you're leading a meeting, could you start it that way? i Just say, hey, hey, you know what? I'd like to try something new and different today. Let's all take 10 deep breaths together. And um it might seem scary, but I bet you that you'll get feedback. People will come to you and they'll say, wow, that was really cool. I love that you did that.

17:56.93
Betsy Hamm
Oh, and you know what? That's probably one of those things. Maybe the first time people are like, what the heck is going on? But then they'll realize how great it is.

18:01.88
Sonja Price
Mm-hmm.

18:03.81
Betsy Hamm
and it's funny. I think about how I yelled at my kids, not really, but playing volleyball, right? And they're all intense and they're all and you're like, just take a deep breath. Like just, you know, so it's funny that you do think about that, especially in sports situations. But like, let's think about it from professional situation.

18:20.25
Betsy Hamm
That's great.

18:20.39
Sonja Price
Mm hmm.

18:20.58
Betsy Hamm
Yeah.

18:20.81
Sonja Price
Mm hmm.

18:21.63
Betsy Hamm
Is there anything else from a mindset tip or trick of how to deal with change when you're on the receiving and whether you're the leader or you're just an employee? um What else do you suggest when you have to deal with change?

18:36.14
Sonja Price
Well, I think that, you know, leading through change is really about courage. because it is scary. No one wants to change. We all resist change, no matter how big or how small that it is.

18:48.96
Sonja Price
And especially in organizational life, when there's large change happening, everyone's scared. They're terrified that they're going to lose their job and they don't they don't know what's coming. They don't know where they're being led to, what's going to happen next.

19:02.33
Sonja Price
And so I think, you know, it really is about courage. It's not about I mean, it is about, you know, checklists and making sure that we're getting things moving forward, but But that's the management of change.

19:17.11
Sonja Price
Managing change is about checklist and project tasks and, you know, all of the different things that need to be accomplished and checked off to get us to the, you know, the end the end product. But leading through change is really about having the courage to to be a leader and to have the presence and and and be someone who people want to follow.

19:40.91
Sonja Price
And sometimes that means being authentic. And maybe that means speaking up to say, you know, this is a big change and, and, and I'm kind of scared of it too, but here's how, here's how we're going to get through it together.

19:49.93
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

19:53.40
Betsy Hamm
You used two of my favorite words is courage and being authentic. And I think that's so important from a leadership perspective. So I love that you've mentioned that actually more than once because it is, it's important. And that's what builds great leaders and that trust with your team.

20:07.98
Betsy Hamm
So let's switch gears a little bit. And you like to talk about career roadmaps. So talk to me about a career roadmap and what that looks like.

20:15.95
Sonja Price
Hmm. Yeah. Well, you know, um as I shared before, I've had many, many different changes in my career. And so developing a career roadmap is really taking a conscious look at the future of your career.

20:32.48
Sonja Price
And it's, you know, maybe taking a step back to say, okay, where have I been? What's in my past? What, what can I bring with me? Or what do I want to bring with me? What do I really enjoy doing?

20:44.37
Sonja Price
And how can I apply that towards the future? And what I find having worked with many, many, many different professionals over, over 15 plus years now is that most people just kind of do their career by default.

21:00.77
Sonja Price
It's like, okay, well, oh, so-and-so offered me a promotion. Great. I'll take it. Or, um, You know, hmm, this seems like the best use of my skill set. So let me go here. Or I'm scared.

21:12.45
Sonja Price
You know, I'm scared I'm going to get laid off. So I will, I'll do this. Or I got laid off and I'm just going to take the easy path forward or whatnot. And there's nothing wrong with that. However, I found that the people who have the greatest success in life are those who think strategically.

21:28.05
Sonja Price
So you really want to start, you want to think about your career as if it was a project or a program.

21:35.27
Betsy Hamm
Our business.

21:35.65
Sonja Price
And it's like a business, a business.

23:06.83
Sonja Price
If you don't mind.

23:10.71
Betsy Hamm
So let's switch gears a little bit because you like to talk about career mapping. So tell us what that is and why it's important.

23:18.99
Sonja Price
Oh, yeah. One of my favorite topics here. So I love the concept of having a career roadmap, right? So when we work inside of organizations, we have product roadmaps. We have, you know, big plans that we work from that we step back and do market research and take time to evaluate, like, what's next? Where should we be investing our time, energy, resources, et cetera?

23:44.02
Sonja Price
However, what I found over many years of working with professionals is that very few people actually take the time to step back and consciously think through the plan of what's next for them.

23:54.25
Betsy Hamm
Oh.

23:56.66
Sonja Price
And so I highly encourage people to do that, like take that time, do the strategic planning for your own career and treat your treat your career as if it was project. Right.

24:08.26
Sonja Price
So.

24:08.97
Betsy Hamm
oh

24:09.55
Sonja Price
Step back, think about what have you done? What do you enjoy doing? What gives you the most meaning and fulfillment in your career? And what skill set do you want to carry forward?

24:20.63
Sonja Price
And then how can you apply that and leverage those skills to move into something else? And that could mean, that could just mean getting promoted and, you know, going to a higher level, a higher title.

24:32.99
Sonja Price
Maybe it means becoming a domain expert and kind of niching down and becoming an expert in a specific technology or a certain industry. um But really,

24:44.25
Sonja Price
thinking through where are you right now? Where do you want to go? How many more years do you have left before quote unquote retirement? And maybe what might you want your life to look like even after you retire, right?

24:55.95
Betsy Hamm
Mm-hmm.

24:57.86
Sonja Price
Because I find so many people say, oh, I don't know if I'll ever retire, but I'll probably shift into doing something else. So What is that something else? And what can you be doing to prepare right now, not just for your next steps throughout your you know official working career, but then what else might you want to do in the future?

25:18.43
Sonja Price
And inevitably, I always talk to people who say, you know, I think at some point in time, I'd really love to be on a board or I'd like to get into teaching or I'd like to open my own consulting practice or become a coach

25:26.19
Betsy Hamm
Hmm.

25:31.28
Sonja Price
Well, you know, unfortunately, those things do not happen overnight. And so it's really good to be thinking about, OK, well, where do I want to go? What compensation is possible?

25:43.10
Sonja Price
How does that help me get to my my end goal of, you know, my my financial goals and actually setting me up for a long term future? And then also, what else like might I want to do after that?

25:53.98
Sonja Price
And what can I be doing right now to, one, build the skill set to help me be eligible for whatever might come next and next and next and next? And actually thinking about it as ah a long term trajectory.

26:06.77
Sonja Price
And how does everything feed into the next thing? And so developing the right skill set, but also developing the right network.

26:16.16
Betsy Hamm
boom

26:16.11
Sonja Price
And I think that that's something that a lot of people just don't really think about.

26:17.26
Betsy Hamm
Yes.

26:21.38
Sonja Price
And so Knowing where you want to get to eventually and who can help you along the way and making sure that you are nurturing those relationships and building new ones. Like if you don't already have the right people in place, who do you need to have in your network who can help open up doors for you and help you have, you know, that longevity and long term success to carry you through?

26:44.67
Betsy Hamm
Yeah, that is so true. I can't agree anymore with the whole network and your circle and just who you know because that's, let's be honest, how people get jobs. And that comes up a lot of you know who's in your circle um because that's how someone's going to recommend you or say, I know this is available and them knowing that you're interested in that. So I think that's huge. and I think the interesting when you go back to now that I'm 20-ish some years in my career your goals sort of change along the way, right?

27:10.64
Betsy Hamm
Like what my goals were for my career when I was 22 versus 32, 42, it changes.

27:15.26
Sonja Price
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

27:17.87
Betsy Hamm
And I don't know if I ever was looking ahead. and I think a lot of times we get stuck on titles and it's not about just titles, right? Like it's about what makes you happy.

27:25.88
Sonja Price
Mm-hmm.

27:27.46
Betsy Hamm
And, but, you know, how do you, how do you get someone to focus on? Cause I think of that, you know, people through the years, especially women who are like, well, i want to be a director and be a vice president. I want to be CEO. Okay, that's great, but why?

27:38.90
Betsy Hamm
But like, what's going to get you there? So how do you kind of balance that, like not getting so hung up on titles, but more about the path and those, whether short-term or long-term goals that you're trying to achieve?

27:50.18
Sonja Price
Hmm. Oh my gosh. So good. So good. Well, um, you know, yes. Well, It's important not to get hung up on titles and that that does give us a guidepost to to go towards. Right.

28:03.92
Sonja Price
And so if you do want to go after more senior level leadership roles, what I have found is that those who are already performing at that level are generally the ones who get the promotion.

28:16.05
Sonja Price
So, you know, if you do want a director, VP, C-suite type of role, you need to get really clear on What is the skill set that's getting exercised at that level? And how does that differ from what you're doing right now?

28:29.56
Sonja Price
And it really does require a very different mindset because the higher up the ranks that you go, the more strategic that you have to be, and the more that you need to learn how to not only solve problems, but identify the problems to begin with.

28:45.44
Sonja Price
And sometimes that means, you know, just sometimes that means knowing how to analyze data or how to do market research. And how do you how do you know what's coming next and what do you need to do to learn how to chart a new course?

28:57.36
Betsy Hamm
Right. Sure. Hmm.

29:02.49
Sonja Price
Because that's what happens at that senior level leadership role is that they are very strategic and they've they're they're thinking of what comes next, what comes next.

29:05.32
Betsy Hamm
sure

29:10.97
Sonja Price
And they're usually several steps ahead of where where their team is in the implementation of things. And so when people first get into management, it's it's first it's learning the people management skills and knowing how to knowing how to move from a technical person, you know from the one doing, from the one being a doer,

29:29.82
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

29:31.27
Sonja Price
to becoming a people manager. But then the more and more and more that you rise in the ranks, it's more so about, okay, well, what's coming next and how can I how can i be far ahead of the curve so that we can help you know leaders of leaders and leaders and leaders and leaders, that trickle-down effect, how how do we help that implementation plan you know get get built in throughout the entire organization?

29:41.10
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

29:55.03
Betsy Hamm
No, that's so important. And because to your point, you can be really good it can be very technical. So maybe you're a really good salesperson, right? And your numbers are, you're killing it.

30:03.15
Sonja Price
Mm-hmm.

30:04.40
Betsy Hamm
So what happens? You're not promoted, but that person may not be good with dealing with or managing people or in a team. So it's a whole different skill set. And then to your point, the strategy uh, as you continue to climb.

30:17.67
Betsy Hamm
So if that's your path that you want to take, it's building those skills ah as long as you're going along the path, because I think we probably all can think of somebody who's been promoted because of their skill and that wasn't because they were going to be a good manager or leader.

30:32.60
Betsy Hamm
And that's, that's tough.

30:33.15
Sonja Price
Mm-hmm.

30:33.86
Betsy Hamm
So that doesn't mean for everybody.

30:34.55
Sonja Price
Mm-hmm.

30:35.37
Betsy Hamm
a lot of times people can grow and learn, but it's kind of identifying that early. So you can have that right path.

30:42.00
Sonja Price
Mm-hmm. Yes. And one other thing that I'll add that's also very important, if I may add this, is that it's not just about developing the skill set, but it's making sure that you're producing results and that the right people know about your results.

30:55.98
Betsy Hamm
Mm-hmm.

30:58.14
Sonja Price
because And that is your job as a professional, is to make sure that you're getting exposure for your results and that you know who are the key people inside the organization that can make the decisions that to help promote you and give you new opportunities.

31:14.62
Sonja Price
And do those people know who you are? Do they know what you're capable of? And are you and do you have a good relationship with them where when a new opportunity arises, you're the first person that comes to mind that says, oh, you know who should lead this is this person.

31:30.91
Betsy Hamm
Right. Oh, my gosh. I just want to be up front to everybody.

31:32.54
Sonja Price
hmm.

31:33.54
Betsy Hamm
I did not pay you to say that. That is one of my favorite things to talk about. It comes up in not almost every episode, but it's pie and how your performance is table stakes.

31:41.78
Sonja Price
Mm-hmm.

31:44.42
Betsy Hamm
It's a foundation. You need to be good at what you do, but then it's your image, how people describe you, your brand, and then exposure. If nobody knows what you're doing, then it doesn't matter. So I love that that keeps coming up over and over again on these episodes because i think that just reinforces how important that is.

31:55.55
Sonja Price
That's right.

32:01.55
Betsy Hamm
So I did not pay you to say that.

32:02.62
Sonja Price
Mm-hmm.

32:03.14
Betsy Hamm
Thank you for in one of my favorite topics.

32:05.36
Sonja Price
You're welcome. Well, I mean, i'm glad I'm glad that you reiterate that because it is so important. it's It's crucial. It's crucial. And I think most people are so buried in the weeds of what they're doing on a day-to-day basis that they forget to stop, put their head up, look around and say, okay, what else is going on?

32:20.87
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

32:22.66
Sonja Price
And And who do I need to be connecting with and who needs to know about what I'm doing? And that networking piece has been proven time and time again that that is one of the biggest reasons why people accelerate success in their career.

32:33.27
Betsy Hamm
Yeah.

32:35.95
Betsy Hamm
No, it makes sense.

32:37.06
Sonja Price
Yeah.

32:37.26
Betsy Hamm
So this has been amazing. Do you have any other parting advice for us, whether it's from the career mapping or from dealing with change?

32:45.89
Sonja Price
Hmm.

32:50.70
Betsy Hamm
mean, you gave me the good one with the exposure, right?

32:52.26
Sonja Price
Well,

32:53.33
Betsy Hamm
ah

32:54.08
Sonja Price
Yeah, I mean, I would say that, you know, change is inevitable, no matter what kind of change that we're talking about, whether that's organizational change, career change, family change, community change, politic change, like everything, you know, change is inevitable.

33:10.09
Betsy Hamm
Right.

33:12.21
Sonja Price
It's happening around us ah all the time. However, you know, suffering is optional and it really truly is our mindset and what we bring to it.

33:24.03
Sonja Price
And I speak firsthand from experience here that, um, You know, sometimes it's easy to kind of get into maybe more of a victim mentality of saying like, oh my God, why is this happening? The sky is falling. There's too much. I just can't handle it.

33:40.70
Sonja Price
But how can you rise above that in yourself? and move from victim to more of a visionary stance of, OK, you know what? This change is happening. However, what is within my control? What is within my influence?

33:59.08
Sonja Price
What can I do? Who can I talk to Where do I want to go and what what will help support me in doing that? And just thinking through all the layers of systems is like first it starts internal.

34:08.72
Betsy Hamm
Oh.

34:11.77
Sonja Price
Right. So all the things that we talked about before is that like If you do feel challenged by the changes that are happening, what can you do to care for yourself so that it's not as scary as it actually seems? Because it's not.

34:23.93
Sonja Price
It's not that scary. but're you know We're all moving through this day by day, moment to moment, and we're getting through it and we will always get through it. But how can you rise above that to be more strategic and more more conscious of what's happening around you in a way that you can take action that truly matters and that will set you up for the long term success that you desire.

34:49.26
Betsy Hamm
I love that. That was such great parting words. Tanya, thank you so much for being here. If people want to connect with you or find out more about what you work on, where can they find you?

34:59.05
Sonja Price
Oh, thank you, Betsy. um Please come to my website, infiniteleaders.co. That's infiniteleaders.co.

35:04.78
Betsy Hamm
Perfect.

35:06.83
Sonja Price
um come Come check me out. I'm also on LinkedIn under Sonja Price, S-O-N-J-A.

35:11.67
Betsy Hamm
And launching a new podcast soon.

35:14.48
Sonja Price
am. Yes, yes, yes. I'm launching the Infinite Leaders podcast. So please come check that out as well.

35:20.60
Betsy Hamm
Awesome. And we'll link everything from the Loud and Lifted podcast too. So make sure you get them in the right spot. Thank you so much for being here.

35:25.62
Sonja Price
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. This was really fun.

35:29.94
Betsy Hamm
Thanks.