Women Helping Women: Katherine Naylor Pullman on Bold Career Moves and Mentorship!

00:01.01
Betsy Hamm
Welcome to Loud and Lifted, Catherine. Thank you so much for being here.

00:05.93
Katherine N Pullman
Thank you for having me. I love the name of the podcast. And immediately it was like, ah, this is such a great name.

00:11.36
Betsy Hamm
this is right up your alley, right? Like you did like to get loud, you like to get lifted, you like to lift other women.

00:13.56
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah.

00:16.39
Betsy Hamm
And that's what we're here to talk about is how you are building community with women. But before we get into that, we need to hear more about you and your journey so far.

00:27.21
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah. Well, I mean, loud most definitely is how everyone describes me. I'm from New Jersey, so i can't beat myself.

00:32.66
Betsy Hamm
Oh, say no more.

00:34.72
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah, say no more. um Yeah, thanks for having me. You know, I am, ah it's been about two months since I've decided to go full time CEO and founder of Our Third Place.

00:47.15
Katherine N Pullman
So we previously were the Media Dinner Club. And this was my side gig that I started about three years ago. And then this summer, um I had this moment where the world just gave me all these signs. and i was like, okay, we're doing this full time. So officially my full time job, but my, my experience is in media, which is why we started as the media dinner club, primarily in brand partnerships, and actually a lot of startups.

01:16.26
Katherine N Pullman
So most famously Quibi,

01:16.37
Betsy Hamm
okay

01:18.47
Katherine N Pullman
was, was my version of business school.

01:21.38
Betsy Hamm
Okay.

01:21.72
Katherine N Pullman
And then I was at Cameo. I most recently was at Hello Sunshine. But I think by going to all the messenger was another startup I was at. So I think what I've realized is that in my career, I've always been told Oh, stop going to startups, stay in your lane.

01:39.98
Katherine N Pullman
But the beautiful thing is now that because I've, I was chasing the startup life, I now feel equipped to be, um, to be running a startup. So that's where we are now. And, I'm really, really excited for, for, I'm already talking about 2026, but I'm excited for the end of this year in 2026.

01:49.53
Betsy Hamm
okay

01:55.08
Betsy Hamm
Nice.

01:56.61
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah.

01:58.00
Betsy Hamm
So you just mentioned a bunch of awesome names and you've been involved in some really great concepts. And let's just be up front here. How long ago did you graduate from college?

02:07.84
Katherine N Pullman
I graduated in 2018. So ah my long and winding career of seven years, but I have about seven logos on my resume, which shows you I have jumped around, which is the antithesis of what people tell you

02:12.27
Betsy Hamm
Yes.

02:23.00
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

02:23.55
Katherine N Pullman
to do And I'm really glad that I jumped around in my 20s because i really feel like I can take this risk in and running a business because of all those experiences.

02:34.70
Katherine N Pullman
But I'm I did have some internships starting at the age of like 15.

02:35.47
Betsy Hamm
So what gave you the confidence?

02:40.81
Katherine N Pullman
So we can we can say I've been in media for 15 years.

02:45.94
Betsy Hamm
Oh, yeah, that's some serious rounding up right there.

02:50.45
Betsy Hamm
that's so interesting. And you're right. People in your circle will probably say, like, don't switch careers, don't go somewhere new. So what gave you that confidence to do that?

02:58.12
Katherine N Pullman
Your audio just went out a little bit.

02:59.05
Betsy Hamm
I know. I just noticed that, too. We'll add to this part. Everything looks plugged in. Okay. Hopefully that was just a weird glitch.

03:08.13
Betsy Hamm
Sorry, Kristen, you can edit that.

03:10.10
Katherine N Pullman
Do you wanna ask the question again?

03:10.26
Betsy Hamm
Okay. Yeah. awesome um So you're right. A lot of times in your journey, people will say, stick with the company, stay where you are. You don't want to be a resume jumper. So how did you have that confidence and make those decisions to take those opportunities?

03:25.22
Katherine N Pullman
a good question. I've actually never been asked that question. i think

03:32.42
Katherine N Pullman
think I always took an educated guess. So it wasn't like I was just jumping around for the sake of jumping around, I was jumping around because I listened to the market and listened to what my passions were.

03:44.74
Betsy Hamm
Mm-hmm.

03:45.45
Katherine N Pullman
So when I went to Quibi, because at the time I was a talent assistant at one of the top talent agencies, and I started reading the Quibi scripts. was like, wow, these this is so interesting. For those who don't know, Quibi's whole idea was to create a great content in very short snippets.

04:05.06
Katherine N Pullman
So they were short scripts, but they were really, and they really encapsulated my attention. So instead of just saying, oh yeah, this is interesting to I thought, What is this company? Are they hiring? Where could I get my foot in the door here?

04:16.44
Katherine N Pullman
um Same with Cameo. Cameo was really, I kept hearing about them and all my friends were ordering Cameos, especially during the pandemic to get, those are the celebrity, like happy birthday videos where you can get a celebrity to shout you out.

04:28.24
Betsy Hamm
Okay.

04:30.54
Katherine N Pullman
It was super popular during the pandemic because so many people weren't meeting up in person. It was such a nice, personal, fun touch to do. So I looked into it and that's how i ended up there. So it was a making educated risks and then B, following where what interested me and where my passions were at the moment.

04:51.89
Betsy Hamm
Okay. that makes That makes sense. And I love that following where your passions were. um Any regrets through the last seven years?

04:59.72
Katherine N Pullman
Any regrets?

05:05.24
Katherine N Pullman
It's funny. So I actually just texted my first boss. I landed in l LA for ZCon. It was a conference that um UTA puts on. i was just there.

05:16.44
Katherine N Pullman
And every time I land in l LA, I feel a little bit of I feel a little melancholy because I did live in l LA the first couple of years out of college and I did at all. I did everything I was supposed to do and not supposed to do, but I left pretty quickly. So I always have regret for the things I didn't do, but embarrassed by the things I did do anyway.

05:35.72
Katherine N Pullman
So I actually texted my first boss and I was like, I was really bad at my job and I'm really sorry. i have dyslexia. So being a talent assistant was extraordinarily difficult for me because you have to, they literally roll calls. So it'll be like, call Betsy Ham. And then I'd have to be like, okay, how do I spell Ham? And it's like, okay, in my head, Ham looks like an N-N-M-M-M. And like, I don't know if that's an N or a M or that I'm looking at. so So the the the job itself was so hard on my brain that I honestly wasn't very good at my first job out of college.

06:10.54
Katherine N Pullman
So regrets, no But cringe-worthy mistakes, yes. Yes.

06:18.53
Betsy Hamm
which we all have, right? I mean, we all have those cringe-forming moments.

06:19.98
Katherine N Pullman
We all have them. But I think everything that I've done and did has has like led me to where I am today.

06:27.38
Betsy Hamm
Sure. So do you think now looking back, was it all sort of connected? Maybe not realizing at the time, but looking back, was it sort of like

06:33.68
Katherine N Pullman
Oh, totally. Totally. And even the things that I did in l LA, like I went to the parties and I dated and I would go to all different parts of Los Angeles. One weekend be in Santa barbara Barbara, the next weekend I'd be in Santa Monica. um So I'd say, you know,

06:50.28
Katherine N Pullman
just running wild in your 20s is perfect. Because then when I met my partner, i knew he was my husband. And when i made the decision to become a mom, I knew I wanted to become a mom. Like I felt like I'd done a lot of things.

07:01.95
Katherine N Pullman
um So in that way, i do feel like it's all connected. I feel like I checked off a lot on my bucket list in my twenty s

07:08.51
Betsy Hamm
Nice. I love that. So because you've done so much at such a young age, do you ever feel like sometimes you have to have maybe say or act that you're older because people don't maybe give you the the credibility or the respect because you are young and you've been killing it all along?

07:22.51
Katherine N Pullman
Oh, thank you. i would not say killing it all along. I must definitely have had some peaks and valleys as we all do, but, um, I totally have a little bit of a chip on my shoulder about my age because there have been people who have told me stay in my lane because of whatever my title was.

07:27.89
Betsy Hamm
Of course.

07:43.97
Katherine N Pullman
And there have been rooms where I had to earn the right to have an opinion because I was young. Um, And I keep saying, um a lot in this interview, I need to stop saying, um, uh, I just said, uh, uh, um, can you edit that out?

07:54.13
Betsy Hamm
You're fine.

07:59.19
Katherine N Pullman
Kristen, whoever your girl is.

07:59.25
Betsy Hamm
Yes. Yes.

08:03.97
Katherine N Pullman
Sorry. Going back to the question. What was the question again?

08:07.62
Betsy Hamm
ah but You said you have a tip on your shoulder because of being young.

08:09.59
Katherine N Pullman
Oh yes. So I think I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder about my age because there've been so many people who've said to me, stay in your lane, be quieter, speaking of loud and lifted, that I have almost felt like I've had to make myself smaller.

08:22.09
Betsy Hamm
Thank you.

08:30.94
Katherine N Pullman
And I think my age has always had something to do with it. I had this one boss at Quibi though, Marnie Shapiro, who looked at me and she says, Catherine, one day I'm going to work for you. So she was someone who even when I was 24 was like, saw me as so much more than my age, but it, you know, it takes one person to look at you as young and small to to free for you to forget all the positive things anyone has ever told you So I totally, i I, I, there's most definitely a part of me that now introduces myself as a mom because it gives me more street cred.

09:03.38
Katherine N Pullman
It's like, yeah, okay.

09:03.71
Betsy Hamm
but

09:04.18
Katherine N Pullman
She must, if she's old enough to have a kid, then like she must be old enough to run a company. Right.

09:08.18
Betsy Hamm
Right.

09:08.48
Katherine N Pullman
But I think I surprise a lot when people hear I'm 30. I think that they, there's always going to be some biases, some good and some bad.

09:16.37
Betsy Hamm
Sure. Yeah, no, that's fair. And I can totally relate to that. I was at a company and got promoted really quickly and was in my 20s and had people older than me, twice as my age, reporting to me. And you do, you kind of get that tip on your shoulder of anytime that maybe you're not perfect, you mess something up, which we're all going to do. It's like, oh, because she's so young. She's so inexperienced. and And that kind of becomes the reason.

09:37.95
Betsy Hamm
And I would fight that too.

09:38.84
Katherine N Pullman
Right.

09:39.69
Betsy Hamm
And I would try to be more, I don't know, Feel older, act older. And I got married young, so I at least had that. They were like, well, I'm married. Like, you know, not that young.

09:47.95
Katherine N Pullman
great Right, right. No, totally. And I also think that when I was younger, there were times that you want to take down the younger person in the room, the bright eyed and bushy tailed young girl, because it's annoying.

10:03.68
Katherine N Pullman
It's why is she asking another question?

10:03.63
Betsy Hamm
Right.

10:05.56
Katherine N Pullman
it's like the kid who asks where the homework is.

10:05.55
Betsy Hamm
No.

10:07.54
Katherine N Pullman
It's like, teacher forgot to assign homework to say that.

10:08.13
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

10:10.60
Katherine N Pullman
So I actually had a conversation with this gal. um I believe she's like 25. And there were some older women in her org who weren't being kind to her. And I heard about it.

10:22.21
Katherine N Pullman
So I called her. and this is the first time I've ever said this to anyone. I said, I want to be your mentor. And she was like, wait, what? And I'm like, I see so much potential in you. And the same exact thing happened to me.

10:34.45
Katherine N Pullman
like i want to be your mentor. And by the way, I'm someone who's kind of hard to get hold of some days because I just have so much going on. Most of the time when people ask to like pick my brain about my career, I just say, join our third place, go to a dinner. i swear you'll get more out of our community than having 30 minutes with me.

10:50.54
Katherine N Pullman
So this was like a purposeful calling up this gal and saying, I want to mentor you because I know how important those first few years having older women tell you that you are important and that your opinion counts, how much that matters.

11:04.66
Katherine N Pullman
So I'm hoping to give back to this, um to this gal. She's amazing. And hopefully she has a very, she's going to have amazing career.

11:07.97
Betsy Hamm
Right.

11:11.39
Katherine N Pullman
I'll work for her one day is what I told her.

11:11.29
Betsy Hamm
right

11:13.15
Katherine N Pullman
I told her what Marnie told me.

11:14.99
Betsy Hamm
I love that.

11:15.51
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah.

11:15.47
Betsy Hamm
And you're so right. It's having somebody believe in you and support you. And I was lucky enough to have that too.

11:21.20
Katherine N Pullman
yeah

11:21.15
Betsy Hamm
But now it's, to your point, it's paying that back and making sure that we're supporting the, well, to me, the younger generation, the younger generation of leaders, because you can be made or bra broken, i guess, um in your 20s and think like, oh, I don't have the opportunity.

11:37.45
Betsy Hamm
I don't have the ability when it's just, you don't have the confidence. So the more that we can build it.

11:41.04
Katherine N Pullman
Right. And people will be mean.

11:43.67
Betsy Hamm
Right.

11:44.05
Katherine N Pullman
but Like jealous people will be mean.

11:46.07
Betsy Hamm
Yep.

11:46.52
Katherine N Pullman
And that is something my mom taught me in middle school.

11:46.61
Betsy Hamm
Oh gosh.

11:48.76
Katherine N Pullman
And unfortunately, it applies to high school, to college, to post-grad. Like people can sometimes be mean. yeah.

11:55.53
Betsy Hamm
Absolutely. And women.

11:56.41
Katherine N Pullman
If you're girl and you feel like you can't keep on keeping on, keep going. I promise it gets better.

12:03.14
Betsy Hamm
Well, and you have a young daughter. So as she gets older, and I remember my oldest daughter being like four at daycare, and it was like the mean girl stuff started. And you're like, what? At full world? This is starting now?

12:13.55
Betsy Hamm
So the more you can build her confidence from day one and as she grows up, that's like, okay, it's going to happen. Unfortunately, people are going to be mean to them.

12:19.95
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah.

12:21.70
Betsy Hamm
So how they deal with it is, I think, our job to make sure we give them those tools.

12:26.64
Katherine N Pullman
I just, uh, she was having a bad day. mean, she's six months, but she was having a bad day. And i said to her, I was like, okay, I'm going tuck you into your sleep sack so you can become a caterpillar. And tomorrow you get to be a new butterfly.

12:39.41
Betsy Hamm
Oh

12:39.71
Katherine N Pullman
like every day whether you're an adult or a child, you get to cocoon yourself in bed. And the next day you can try it a new pair of wings. And I think, think I'm going to keep telling her that for like the rest of her life.

12:51.29
Betsy Hamm
um my gosh, I love that. That's so great. Well, and the other part of that that you started to touch on and ties in nicely to the next part of this is is having that community that surrounds you, that supports you.

13:01.73
Betsy Hamm
So tell us about our third place.

13:02.49
Katherine N Pullman
Yep.

13:04.81
Katherine N Pullman
Yes. ah So our third place is a networking community for women in media and now finance. And our whole mission is to supercharge your network with friendship. So What I found three years ago was that if you were lucky enough to have friends in your industry, were, that's actually a very rare thing now to have real friends.

13:27.66
Katherine N Pullman
So what we're trying to create is a, and we have created is a community where your network becomes your, ah where your network becomes your friendship circle and where your connections become your community. And I use those words connection and community very specifically because after the pandemic, what we saw was this influx of in-person opportunities.

13:56.44
Katherine N Pullman
You have pickleball, you have run clubs, you have I mean, at book clubs, like everyone rushed to be in person. And what I'm seeing is that a lot of people are connecting at a ton of different ways, but going that next level and making your connections in a community is actually a pretty hard thing to do. It takes time, it takes consistency, and it takes um some sort of reciprocity. Like you have to reciprocate with someone in order to feel like you're a real friend.

14:26.11
Katherine N Pullman
So We put that into practice with our third place because we are a repetitive dinner party series. So we have about 20 dinners every week um in 37 cities.

14:38.45
Katherine N Pullman
So if you're in New York, you can go to a dinner twice a week if you wanted to.

14:42.49
Betsy Hamm
no

14:42.65
Katherine N Pullman
That's our biggest chapter. But we are consistently allowing women. We're showing up consistently and we're giving them tools. We're practicing that reciprocity so that they feel like our third place is a friend and then they can go and make other friends within the community.

14:56.97
Betsy Hamm
I love that. And so when they go to these dinners, is there structure? Is it just dinner? Like do you have programming?

15:03.65
Katherine N Pullman
Uh, it's really easy. We just have three rules at every table, uh, which is one come as you are. So if you're an and introvert, if you're an extrovert, if you need to cry for two hours, which I have cried multiple times at the dinners.

15:15.87
Katherine N Pullman
Um, if you need to order champagne because you just got promoted, like whatever you need for those two hours, it's phone down, phones down about six to seven attendees. Um, we rarely talk about titles. We usually just talk about their role in their company instead of saying VP versus assistant versus, um,

15:33.45
Katherine N Pullman
that's the first, come as you are Second is use confidentiality. And the third is practice the pivot rule. So if you feel uncomfortable about anything happening at the table, you can say pivot, no questions asked.

15:43.76
Betsy Hamm
Oh, interesting.

15:45.04
Katherine N Pullman
But besides that, it's just a girl's night out. I joke it's like a Sex and the City episode because no table is off, like no subject is off the table, no one's on their phone, and everyone's a different personality just by nature of signing up for a dinner with strangers.

15:55.25
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

15:59.65
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah. And yeah, that's it's it's as simple as sign up for your dinner and show up.

16:06.01
Betsy Hamm
And how do the conversations usually go? Is it all media finance? Does it get personal? like Or is it just inclusive like that?

16:12.25
Katherine N Pullman
Oh, it's it's very personal.

16:14.10
Betsy Hamm
Yeah.

16:14.35
Katherine N Pullman
but I'd say we talk about media for about 10 minutes and then it's I mean, we talk about babies, Botox, boobs. birth control. We're just the B club, apparently.

16:25.07
Betsy Hamm
The B club.

16:25.70
Katherine N Pullman
um

16:25.63
Betsy Hamm
Yeah.

16:26.79
Katherine N Pullman
but I mean, we, you know, i i kind of describe what we are as like the ultimate girls group chat. Because when you need a doctor recommendation, when you need a new client recommendation, when you need and like anything, new, like a new recipe, you text your girlfriends.

16:35.92
Betsy Hamm
Mm-hmm.

16:44.16
Katherine N Pullman
And what we've created is the ultimate girl group chat because you go to these dinners, you make the friends, and then we can continue the conversation through our Slack community. So all of our members are on Slack. And this morning i I went to the Ask the Table Slack channel and asked something about women's health and just to see what people's opinion.

17:02.39
Katherine N Pullman
It's a specific question, but um I am really interested in creating speakeasies that are for women's health through our third place.

17:07.65
Betsy Hamm
and

17:09.79
Katherine N Pullman
So I just asked everyone, like, what would you want to know about, what would you want to know if you went to a speakeasy where no conversation is off the table about women's health? And we'll see what we'll see what they say.

17:18.40
Betsy Hamm
Wow. Okay. That's interesting. So I joined ah your group a couple, I think maybe a month or so ago, and I haven't made it to an actual dinner, but I enjoy the Slack conversation and the engagement.

17:28.60
Betsy Hamm
And it's fun just to look through when the introductions and the support and somebody posts something or a question and and there's you know three or four people responding immediately.

17:32.55
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah.

17:37.77
Betsy Hamm
And it's at least nice that it gets you, for people like me who aren't down the street from a dinner party chapter essentially, to know who's out there. And I've talked to several women like on Teams calls, um which has been great.

17:49.09
Betsy Hamm
So it's just another way to connect the dots essentially of, look, we're all doing something that's similar, but at the same time, like we're all women just trying to support each other and um improve from a business perspective.

17:49.88
Katherine N Pullman
i

17:52.83
Katherine N Pullman
yeah

18:02.55
Katherine N Pullman
Right.

18:03.04
Betsy Hamm
So I found the group super supportive and engaging and I'm only in ah virtual land.

18:03.34
Katherine N Pullman
Right.

18:09.21
Betsy Hamm
So

18:09.66
Katherine N Pullman
Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I, well, you can go to any of the dinners you want when you're traveling.

18:13.48
Betsy Hamm
Nice.

18:16.03
Katherine N Pullman
So if you're heading anywhere, going to New York for a night, check it out and see if there's a dinner.

18:16.52
Betsy Hamm
That's true.

18:21.32
Katherine N Pullman
It's like the best part. I mean, I've just hosted a dinner in l LA because I was there. It's like, anyone want to go to dinner? So that's kind of the beauty about being one of our

18:26.97
Betsy Hamm
That's amazing.

18:29.14
Katherine N Pullman
We call up you guys our digital NOBAD members.

18:31.90
Betsy Hamm
Nice. Nice.

18:33.34
Katherine N Pullman
So you can have that unofficial title if you'd like.

18:33.36
Betsy Hamm
I love it. Thank you. So where do you see this going? What are your goals for this in the next, let's say a year or two years or further?

18:41.67
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah, I'm pretty passionate about making, never letting sponsors come into the dinners because that is what is really our secret sauce and our differentiator.

18:53.91
Katherine N Pullman
With that being said, i think that we can create events with the same warmth and confidentiality and and yeah warmth.

19:05.97
Katherine N Pullman
I think that's the word most women feel and say when they leave our dinners.

19:06.47
Betsy Hamm
sure

19:10.00
Katherine N Pullman
So like a speakeasy, a women's health speakeasy where your phone's away and you just talk about women's health for two hours. I wanna do a Galentine's day. I wanna do a ornament exchange for Christmas. So I'm thinking about, I'd really like us to start events, but keep them intimate.

19:28.77
Katherine N Pullman
aye different and all about that warmth and and bring in sponsorships to those conversations so that we can provide the events for free for our members.

19:30.69
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

19:37.26
Betsy Hamm
Nice.

19:37.91
Katherine N Pullman
That's where I see us being um outside of just events.

19:37.86
Betsy Hamm
That's awesome.

19:41.08
Katherine N Pullman
I see us showing up at temples. So we tested this at ah Ad Week, Advertising Week in New York, and we had a ah event first thing Monday morning from 8 to 10 at Macy's and everyone got their makeup done and you just got to meet 40 women in our community.

19:58.16
Katherine N Pullman
And you got to do a little personal shopping. You got to see the space. But most importantly is that then you're going into advertising week with 40 familiar faces.

20:06.17
Betsy Hamm
True.

20:06.87
Katherine N Pullman
That is such a game changer for a woman, like ah especially for conferences in Las Vegas and maybe internationally. Like when I went to CES at 24 years old, i had my eyes were so wide. i was like, what is going on?

20:22.06
Katherine N Pullman
i would have loved to be able to know 40 other women there.

20:25.12
Betsy Hamm
correct

20:25.24
Katherine N Pullman
So making it so that at every single temple event, we have some sort of morning activity that doesn't involve alcohol, where you can meet 40 to 60 women, I think it's going to be really important for our membership.

20:38.83
Katherine N Pullman
um And the third thing we're thinking about is just becoming more of a tech enabled company.

20:42.21
Betsy Hamm
Nice.

20:42.89
Katherine N Pullman
I want it to be so, so simple to sign up and show up, sign up and show up, um and making hosting the dinner so easy. Just post. I want it to be as easy as as making a reservation on OpenTable.

20:55.07
Betsy Hamm
nice

20:55.23
Katherine N Pullman
So I actually brought on two business partners who are wonderful. I met them through the community, which is a testament to the community itself, who are there more focusing on this the the tech side of the business.

21:08.19
Katherine N Pullman
And I'm really excited to see how we how we grow.

21:11.47
Betsy Hamm
I love that. And so you're obviously building a strong community of connection. And I, of course, like to talk about circles and the strength of that. So what if you have a friend who has been in a situation where it's not supportive? Maybe they're not feeling that like from a company perspective, you know, have you been there? Have you done that? Have you survived? Or just either friends who have done that?

21:30.60
Betsy Hamm
um How do you get through that? And what do you suggest for women?

21:34.84
Katherine N Pullman
That's a good question.

21:40.08
Katherine N Pullman
This is a particularly hard question for me because I am someone who's always had their job be part of their identity. I just am someone who doesn't do work-life balance. My work is my life and my life is my work. Like it just, there's always that.

21:54.58
Katherine N Pullman
So this is a particularly hard question because I've really struggled with this. Like when I have a bad day at work, I'm bringing it home.

22:04.56
Katherine N Pullman
So the advice i would give,

22:10.81
Katherine N Pullman
the advice I would give to someone is that think about what's happening to you and understand if it is a a moment to learn.

22:26.41
Katherine N Pullman
Like if someone's giving you real feedback Don't be afraid of feedback. Ask for feedback. Feedback is a beautiful, beautiful thing. If someone is giving you a critique that isn't going to make you a better leader or a better salesperson or just a better person, period, it's probably more of a reflection of them than it is of you.

22:47.56
Katherine N Pullman
So being able to differentiate between feedback and criticism, I think is extraordinarily important because I think of criticism as a negative and feedback as a positive.

22:52.94
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

22:57.53
Katherine N Pullman
And I would actually say, if you are feeling like you're ah in an unhealthy environment at work, go and talk to your your your boss and say, this is how I'm feeling. What feedback do you have from me so that I can feel better in my day-to-day?

23:12.73
Katherine N Pullman
and listen, if they don't, if they aren't filling your cup, they as in the company as a whole, it's okay to pivot.

23:19.72
Betsy Hamm
sure

23:22.18
Katherine N Pullman
It doesn't have to be tomorrow. But one other piece of advice I will say is have a coffee chat every single week. Have a coffee chat every single week I don't care if you are in your dream job at the sickest company of all time, have a coffee chat outside of your clients and outside of your network every single week so that If you're feeling uncomfortable at your job, if you need a need a getaway car, you now have, okay, let's say you have a coffee chat every week for 52 weeks and you need a getaway car, at the end of 2026, you have 52 people you can you can talk to.

23:58.82
Katherine N Pullman
um So that that would be my...

24:01.47
Betsy Hamm
totally agree with that. And you know exposure is one of those things that comes up time and time again on these episodes and the importance of it. And being intentional, you know I think we get stuck in our bubble, which is normal.

24:11.81
Betsy Hamm
you know You get stuck with your team or your company, but it is, it's getting outside of that bubble and making those connections because you never know. And to your point, you could be as happy as possible in that role, but maybe there is something better.

24:19.92
Katherine N Pullman
You never know.

24:24.69
Betsy Hamm
And let's be honest, most jobs come from networking. not

24:29.28
Katherine N Pullman
Right.

24:29.28
Betsy Hamm
You know, you could people post on LinkedIn or whatever, but you probably have a better chance if you know somebody or, you know, get that call directly than just applying for jobs.

24:29.52
Katherine N Pullman
Right. No.

24:38.31
Betsy Hamm
So I think that's so important. And we hear that time and time again, but you have to be intentional. You have to take the time. And I love that you're saying once a week, reach out to somebody.

24:46.74
Katherine N Pullman
I mean, honestly, just go to every single hour, third place dinner in your chapter.

24:46.66
Betsy Hamm
Right.

24:50.90
Katherine N Pullman
You're good to go.

24:50.91
Betsy Hamm
Right. right

24:52.21
Katherine N Pullman
mean, hosted like 60 dinners my first like 14 months of doing this. Okay. 60 times the seven people who were going to each of my dinners. Like I've, didn't someone do that math for me? Is that for you?

25:04.34
Katherine N Pullman
I am. See, I'm not the math person. This is, this is the one problem I have with being a founder.

25:09.40
Betsy Hamm
Right.

25:09.68
Katherine N Pullman
I'm like, what's six times seven? and

25:11.24
Betsy Hamm
Yeah.

25:11.72
Katherine N Pullman
Like, That's another thing we're building in the back end of our, when you become a member of our third place, you can see all of the dinners you've gone to in the past. So essentially you are making Rolodex of women you've met in person.

25:25.98
Katherine N Pullman
And that is so, so amazing to have that tool. So you're not just going on LinkedIn and you're like, How do I know that person? It's like, I can go to the back of, I can go to my profile in our third place see every single woman I've ever had dinner with.

25:37.06
Betsy Hamm
Oh, cool.

25:40.20
Katherine N Pullman
And that's really, really amazing. Not just, you know, shout out my own product, but go to dinner.

25:43.83
Betsy Hamm
Sure. That's very cool. So do you ever have women who show up to this who are like totally out of their comfort zone and nervous to be there? And then, you know, by the end they're cool.

25:50.91
Katherine N Pullman
Yes.

25:52.74
Betsy Hamm
So.

25:53.71
Katherine N Pullman
Yes, that's like the number one story that we get is like, I either A, didn't want to go because I was exhausted or B, I was really nervous because I'm an introvert. And I'm telling you the best dinners happen when you're overtired. And like, i i even sometimes don't have it in me to go to the dinners. And I'm like, ugh.

26:13.20
Katherine N Pullman
I'm so tired. I just want to go to bed. And then I, it's always those dinners that are the best because what I'm realizing is that I really, what I need is getting my cup refilled. And because we aren't networking at these dinners and more just enjoying time with girlfriends, you leave so much more ready to take on the next day.

26:33.10
Betsy Hamm
I love that. And because you're right, it fills your cup. And sometimes when you're in networking events that you're trying to meet Mr. So-and-so because they have a connection whatever, it's a lot of pressure and a lot of like, oh, I got to have this conversation.

26:40.12
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah.

26:43.86
Betsy Hamm
I got to make sure I say this.

26:44.29
Katherine N Pullman
Right.

26:45.39
Betsy Hamm
There's no pressure in this situation. You guys were there just to connect and to build community, which takes out that like, oh, I have to make sure I say everything perfect and hit my elevator pitch.

26:48.23
Katherine N Pullman
Right.

26:51.43
Katherine N Pullman
right

26:56.14
Katherine N Pullman
Right.

26:56.14
Betsy Hamm
Um,

26:56.59
Katherine N Pullman
Right. Well, that's another thing that a lot of people are taught is like, when you go to that cocktail hour, you have to leave with at least five new connections and but like make networking less formulaic.

27:09.05
Katherine N Pullman
Just go to the dinner and see who you meet. Because sometimes you might sit up there and be like, okay, I have nothing in common with any of these women. And that didn't lead me to a new lead or a new job.

27:20.99
Katherine N Pullman
i tell, I'm I promise you one of those women will come back into your life at some point. Like it's okay for the dinners not to be super calculated because there's just this like magic and the ambiguity around it.

27:31.10
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

27:35.45
Katherine N Pullman
And nothing's and like, we don't get to live in ambiguity anymore, especially with like AI and everything's so calculated. Just enjoy that. You just get to have dinner with five to six, like six to seven women.

27:45.19
Betsy Hamm
Right.

27:45.99
Katherine N Pullman
Just have fun with that.

27:46.15
Betsy Hamm
Well, and you made a good point. And I have experience and somebody I was just talking to this morning mentioned this too, that somebody they met 20, 30 years ago, whatever, it was a long time ago, casually kept in touch, ended giving them a really amazing career opportunity.

27:58.81
Betsy Hamm
And it was, you know, it wasn't like they were talking on a weekly, monthly basis, but they had this connection and and just sort of kept it lit, I guess you could say.

28:07.65
Katherine N Pullman
Yep. Yep.

28:08.06
Betsy Hamm
um But you never know where things are going to go.

28:08.28
Katherine N Pullman
yeah

28:09.78
Betsy Hamm
And you might meet people and It doesn't really go anywhere, but get a good connection and you start following them on LinkedIn or whatever it is. But ah sometimes you just don't know where that's going to go.

28:18.74
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah. My fun fact is that I actually met my doula through Our Third Place. She is an ad tech as her main job in her COVID gig was getting her doula licensing.

28:30.19
Katherine N Pullman
And she's like a cool, chill media gal.

28:30.37
Betsy Hamm
Oh,

28:33.33
Katherine N Pullman
And she was in my hospital and she had my delivery room.

28:36.13
Betsy Hamm
my God.

28:36.32
Katherine N Pullman
So I did not think going to dinner that night I was going to end up with a doula and I did. yeah.

28:42.69
Betsy Hamm
That's amazing. Yeah. You never know.

28:43.57
Katherine N Pullman
yeah

28:43.85
Betsy Hamm
And sometimes it's just not immediate, but it comes back around. You're like, oh, okay. Sometimes it's funny how the world's connected.

28:49.16
Katherine N Pullman
yeah

28:49.51
Betsy Hamm
And people talk about being a small world. It really, truly is. And I think that's important to be out there and to not burn bridges, right? It doesn't mean you have to be um tolerating bad behavior, but just don't burn bridges.

29:01.51
Betsy Hamm
Like you never know where that person's going to come back around. And you're like, oh, wait, I thought I was done with you over here.

29:06.71
Katherine N Pullman
Right.

29:06.64
Betsy Hamm
Now you're back.

29:08.07
Katherine N Pullman
right

29:09.06
Betsy Hamm
That's awesome. Yeah. So since you have a daughter, what is what's your goal that you can think about her in, my gosh, 15, 20 years being in a profession? Like, how do you want to leave or not leave?

29:19.96
Betsy Hamm
How do you want to make this place better for your daughter?

29:25.01
Katherine N Pullman
The world or the media industry?

29:27.09
Betsy Hamm
oh whichever or both from a women in leadership standpoint.

29:29.58
Katherine N Pullman
haven't thought about that. already gave you my good caterpillar analogy. I got to whip something else out.

29:33.92
Betsy Hamm
I do love that. Yeah.

29:38.15
Betsy Hamm
Or things that you hope she doesn't go through that you've gone through and or that your friends have gone through.

29:43.62
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah. I mean, God.

29:49.82
Katherine N Pullman
I'm worried about women's rights.

29:53.81
Katherine N Pullman
Period.

30:01.46
Katherine N Pullman
do what? I'm going to pivot this question.

30:03.32
Betsy Hamm
for it.

30:03.73
Katherine N Pullman
going use the pivot rule because I, there's, for me, there's so much pressure on moms to think about the future and where they're going to go to school and what they're going to eat today. And I actually, I'm going to say, just going to keep on loving her. And I hope that the world keeps on loving her back.

30:24.80
Betsy Hamm
I love that. That's so true.

30:27.04
Katherine N Pullman
but fair?

30:27.73
Betsy Hamm
That's so fair.

30:28.12
Katherine N Pullman
AKA I don't have an answer.

30:29.43
Betsy Hamm
No, that's a great answer.

30:29.61
Katherine N Pullman
don't have the answer to parenting yet. I'm figuring it out.

30:32.53
Betsy Hamm
No.

30:32.87
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah.

30:33.24
Betsy Hamm
And so you mentioned about your integration. Have you figured it out now so now six months in ah so have to being a mom about how that integration works? Now, not only do you have a husband and you know your social life and whatever, but now you have a baby too.

30:47.24
Katherine N Pullman
yeah

30:47.16
Betsy Hamm
So has the integration been working for you?

30:50.67
Katherine N Pullman
So far, it's been lovely. Honestly, I have, I have a tribe. I, my parents are down the street from us. My in-laws are once like couple subway stops above us.

31:02.43
Katherine N Pullman
Uh, my sister was home all summer. So I'm really lucky that such a tribe. Um, and I was so sick when I was pregnant that this is so easy compared to being pregnant, just like mentally, physically,

31:13.12
Betsy Hamm
oh Totally agree.

31:16.09
Katherine N Pullman
um but I don't put the pressure on her or me or us to be perfect. She says want to go to bed. Okay. Don't come sleep in my bed. Like I'm just not following it by the rules.

31:29.72
Katherine N Pullman
Um, And I also just having a tribe has been everything. I'd say the integration has actually been pretty easy. The first big thing that was really hard is that I had to miss one of my best friend's bachelorettes this weekend.

31:42.70
Katherine N Pullman
And that was the first time like I purposefully had to change my life because I'm a mom.

31:48.35
Betsy Hamm
Sure.

31:48.78
Katherine N Pullman
um That was hard. And like I just couldn't, I was coming back from LA. Libby's had COVID and croup cough. So I've had COVID and croup cough. We're both still recovering.

32:01.40
Katherine N Pullman
And I called Nikki and I was just like, i don't I don't think I can come. I just, I don't think I can leave her for four nights. um So that was a little bit of a reality check, but overall, I think because I'm not putting pressure on us or our family unit to be perfect, that it's been pretty nice integration.

32:12.38
Betsy Hamm
sure

32:19.15
Betsy Hamm
That's great. And you're right. You nailed it. It's a tribe. Like no one's doing this on their own. You're never going to be super mom and super wife and super CEO. So it's just having that grace for yourself and also having the support.

32:31.04
Betsy Hamm
I mean, it's it's a deal breaker for sure.

32:32.10
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah. Yeah.

32:33.64
Betsy Hamm
100%.

32:34.54
Katherine N Pullman
I also say if you're lucky or privileged enough to, I shouldn't say privilege. I'm going to read it. I also say if you're lucky enough to have help, use the help.

32:44.91
Betsy Hamm
hundred percent

32:45.01
Katherine N Pullman
Like, I think there's this idea that you have to be super mom. It's like, no, like tonight, my friend invited me to an event. It's about the, um, mayor race in New York, which I think is super important. And it's probably not what I have time for tonight, but my mom is here. So I texted her, I'm like, can you watch Libby for an hour? And she's like, yep.

33:05.15
Katherine N Pullman
Not necessarily the help I wanted to ask for in that moment, but I know that this is important for my growth as a leader to understand the candidates better.

33:12.74
Betsy Hamm
i

33:13.65
Katherine N Pullman
So I'm asking for help. And my mom said, yep, in two seconds. So ask for help, even if you are not in the mood to.

33:20.98
Betsy Hamm
Yeah. And let's be honest, your mom's probably thrilled to watch her anytime. All the grandmothers are always in.

33:25.32
Katherine N Pullman
she's a pretty easy baby i will say that too she's like the chillest little baby

33:30.25
Betsy Hamm
And it's asking because we're guilty of that. I know I think back to times where I was trying to do it all and I wouldn't ask my mom, ask my husband, ask the neighbor because you're I just don't want to be a burden. And it's usually not.

33:40.83
Katherine N Pullman
yeah yeah

33:40.79
Betsy Hamm
So it's just not holding back and asking it and going to the mayor race. don't

33:47.78
Katherine N Pullman
yeah

33:48.43
Betsy Hamm
ah Well, this has been awesome. I greatly appreciate your time, Catherine. So if people want to learn more about our place or connect with you, where can they do that?

33:57.65
Katherine N Pullman
Just go to o3p.com. um You can use, i will actually give you a code. um We can just make the code loud one month free for any of your listeners so they can check it out.

34:08.09
Betsy Hamm
Perfect. Awesome.

34:11.69
Katherine N Pullman
And then just follow me on LinkedIn, but we'd love to have you and your followers to our dinners.

34:16.98
Betsy Hamm
Awesome.

34:17.52
Katherine N Pullman
So should we end how we actually start each of our dinners?

34:20.82
Betsy Hamm
Yes, please.

34:21.94
Katherine N Pullman
So we always start the dinners outside the three rules with one fun question and one work question.

34:27.00
Betsy Hamm
Okay.

34:28.25
Katherine N Pullman
So work question, what has been your win of October? And then fun question is who is your current girl crush?

34:37.51
Betsy Hamm
Oh my gosh. I'm supposed to ask the question. It's not you.

34:40.03
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah, no, I like doing this because your listeners want to hear from you too.

34:44.11
Betsy Hamm
You know, I would say my win for October is you mentioned in pivot, right? And um when I started my business this year, I was focused on emerging brands and marketing brand strategy and all that stuff. And I'm realizing my world of leadership and the podcast are coming together. And so now I'm going to focus on activating.

35:03.04
Betsy Hamm
ah this Loud and Lifted platform into workshops and coaching. And that I had a great call, two great calls, actually.

35:07.58
Katherine N Pullman
Amazing. say

35:09.59
Betsy Hamm
One was today one was last week. And feel like I'm going to move forward on this. So that's been like a good pivot and a good win for the month of October.

35:17.76
Katherine N Pullman
Love it. Make sure you have everything trademarked.

35:20.66
Betsy Hamm
yes. I have not done that.

35:22.55
Katherine N Pullman
and You need to do that. Cut that out, Kristen, but you have to get everything trademarked because the media dinner club, that wasn't just because we wanted to change to our third place. It's because we couldn't trademark it.

35:32.29
Betsy Hamm
oh Okay.

35:34.10
Katherine N Pullman
I have a trademark trademark guy if you want to top 10.

35:36.32
Betsy Hamm
Okay. That's helpful.

35:37.19
Katherine N Pullman
His wife's a member of our third place.

35:37.31
Betsy Hamm
um Thank you. Oh, of course. I love it. I love the connection. It's all good.

35:41.96
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah. um

35:43.02
Betsy Hamm
It's all good.

35:43.57
Katherine N Pullman
And she's now on our advisory board and he's our legal counsel. So full family picture.

35:46.47
Betsy Hamm
Okay. Perfect.

35:47.83
Katherine N Pullman
But yeah, that's a mistake. i do what You asked me what my regrets were. i wish I had trademarked everything earlier.

35:55.00
Betsy Hamm
Right.

35:55.25
Katherine N Pullman
um

35:55.40
Betsy Hamm
Just take that for granted. Like that's just, yeah, you can see that.

35:59.21
Katherine N Pullman
um and then your girl crush.

36:01.80
Betsy Hamm
Oh, my girl crush. um Gosh, I feel like my high school girls are going mad that I didn't come up with somebody so quickly. You know who I keep seeing on TikTok and I love her because she's about women and empowerment and just owning who she is, is Alana.

36:16.23
Betsy Hamm
don't even know her last name. She's a rugby player.

36:18.24
Katherine N Pullman
Oh, yay, Mayer.

36:18.41
Betsy Hamm
She was in the United States. Yes.

36:20.38
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah.

36:20.58
Betsy Hamm
um I just started seeing her content and i love her because she just owns who she is. She's obviously a bigger woman.

36:26.09
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah.

36:27.13
Betsy Hamm
you know, she plays rugby and obviously she was on dance with stars last season, but I just appreciate how she owns who she is and doesn't apologize and doesn't try to make herself small.

36:37.53
Betsy Hamm
She goes with it and she seems to be killing it at least from a social media presence.

36:42.66
Katherine N Pullman
Yeah, and and what I like about her content as well is that she's also very vulnerable about her hard days. And I think that's important as well.

36:47.21
Betsy Hamm
Yes.

36:50.40
Katherine N Pullman
It's not always, life is hard.

36:52.17
Betsy Hamm
It's not always sunshine and rainbows.

36:54.22
Katherine N Pullman
Life is hard.

36:55.24
Betsy Hamm
So do you get to answer those questions for me too?

36:57.81
Katherine N Pullman
I can if you want.

36:58.64
Betsy Hamm
right, let's do it.

36:59.65
Katherine N Pullman
ah My work win the month. has been we actually so the way that our uh company is set up is that we have volunteers who host the dinners which is why we're able to be in 37 cities and we hosted a ton of our volunteers for a media summit um october 3rd and 4th in new york city and we had 90 women for 36 hours in new york city and i did i was most definitely not in the con I never thought I'd pull off a conference, but we did it.

37:32.81
Katherine N Pullman
ah We did it and we planted it about we planted in like 90 days and it was a huge success.

37:36.13
Betsy Hamm
wow

37:36.80
Katherine N Pullman
So that was that was most definitely my work when um and then my current girl crush.

37:47.72
Katherine N Pullman
Hmm.

37:50.67
Katherine N Pullman
This is a hard question. Who asked one?

37:51.69
Betsy Hamm
It is.

37:52.81
Katherine N Pullman
Um, Girl crush, girl crush. I'm just thinking of my dad, good but he's not a girl. I had dinner with him last night and I'm really excited about his next move. Okay,

38:05.49
Betsy Hamm
Well, and all I kept thinking about was watching NFL games yesterday.

38:06.69
Katherine N Pullman
okay. Okay.

38:08.34
Betsy Hamm
My teenage daughters pick out every hot guy that plays football. And I'm like, oh, yeah. Oh, okay. He's cute, too. There's a lot of cute NFL guys currently.

38:15.99
Katherine N Pullman
um

38:18.28
Katherine N Pullman
Current Girl Crush, I most definitely have one. Why is my butt mind literally going a blank? Like all the music I'm listening to right now is men. but This is so unlike me.

38:24.62
Betsy Hamm
know.

38:25.63
Katherine N Pullman
I know, usually don't even talk to men. Oh, okay, I have a good one. Jeremy Gorman is on our board and she is a family friend and she's also been in the industry for a ton of years and she's now the CRO of Fanatics.

38:40.92
Katherine N Pullman
And she invited us to a Fanatics event. And it was so cool to just see a woman like rock an all-male industry.

38:48.60
Betsy Hamm
Yeah.

38:49.52
Katherine N Pullman
So she's my girl crush.

38:51.85
Betsy Hamm
I love it.

38:52.46
Katherine N Pullman
um

38:52.54
Betsy Hamm
That's awesome. Good. all right. Well, thank you so much for sharing that with me. That's amazing. And um thank you for being here. And I look forward to meeting you in person at a dinner here in the next few months.

39:02.30
Katherine N Pullman
Yes.

39:02.42
Betsy Hamm
I can definitely make a New York trip um on the list.

39:02.86
Katherine N Pullman
Yes. Yeah, please do. Or um or at CES. Are you going to be there by any means?

39:09.06
Betsy Hamm
No, no, no i won't be there.

39:09.23
Katherine N Pullman
Any chance? Good for you.

39:13.63
Betsy Hamm
All right. Thank you, Catherine.

39:14.06
Katherine N Pullman
I say my eyes like twitching from lack of sleep already. Thanks

39:18.65
Betsy Hamm
All right. Thank you so much for being here.

39:20.35
Katherine N Pullman
for having me.